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Stuffed engine

Discussion in 'VF Holden Commodore (2013 - 2017)' started by toffbrown98, Apr 15, 2019.

  1. Ron Burgundy

    Ron Burgundy Well-Known Member

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    It's not BS. The line has to be drawn somewhere....
     
  2. losh1971

    losh1971 Well-Known Member

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    Probably no leg to stand on but for the sake of a drive to the stealer and asking for "Good Will" you never know ;). We had a car once that had a purchased warranty but only applied if the car was serviced at CMI in Adelaide. It has a problem with the rack. Now we left the state. When we returned 18 months later and took the car in to have the noise looked at, we were told a big fat too bad, so sad, gonna cost you $2500.
    A few days later I received a call and the dealership said bring it in we will still fix it under warranty. Now it was only a $2500 job to replace the rack with a brand new one but had I not tried I already had my answer, just saying.
     
  3. losh1971

    losh1971 Well-Known Member

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    Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If it was my vehicle I would at least try. I wouldn't go in waiving the "I have rights banner", I would simply ask the question and get the manager in charge to at least make some calls to see if someone is willing to help me out as gesture of "good will". Like I said earlier worst case scenario you get no where, but still no worse off. Sounds like you have plenty of money Ron, if your willing to not even try and see what they say.
     
  4. tml678

    tml678 Well-Known Member

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    I tend to agree with this. The manufacturer is within their rights to expect that a qualified person has performed maintenance on the vehicle before they can be expected to cough up for a warranty claim.
     
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  5. stick3

    stick3 Active Member

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    wondering did he change the oil filter, all alloytecs have it in the same location, on top of engine in a metal screw in housing
     
  6. lordsnipe

    lordsnipe Member

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    Qualifications aside, I don't see how dropping the oil and changing the filter will break an oil pump. If the oil pump failure was manufacturing related (and not service twisted such as sludge) then Holden should be at least partially coming to the party.

    But they probably won't though. Worth a shot.
     
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  7. Ron Burgundy

    Ron Burgundy Well-Known Member

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    That would not break it, but incorrect backyard diagnosis resulted in the engine blowing up in this case. In theory, a qualified mechanic/dealer might have queried the pump especially when the oil level was fine and avoided this disaster. OP decided to pursue this himself and it backfired. Sometimes you just cop it on the chin and learn from your experience. Trust me...I ve been there
     
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  8. tml678

    tml678 Well-Known Member

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    Chances are it would have been throwing error codes prior to self-destructing. I feel for the OP, but if you're going to do a backyard service job on a modern car, you need to at least invest in a cheap OBDII device to find out what the car is telling you when things aren't running as they should.

    It's the first thing Holden would have done if they had the chance. Whilst I feel for the OP and at times question Holden's customer service, they are well within their rights to point to the front door on this one.
     
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  9. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    I’d both agree and disagree in part.

    Yes, the manufacturer is within their rights to require that qualified people service the vehicle but they must also attribute the failure to poor workmanship or faulty parts. They can’t simply say no warranty applies because you changed the oils and filter when your problem is with a window which won’t open.

    Obviously, in this case, it’s a little more complex and likely a loosing up hill battle but they must find some fault in the workmanship or parts used.

    I’d have a discussion with the dealer about the cause of the failure. IIRC some VE/VF commodore V6’s had issue with oil pump o ring leaks and bypass valve sticking... so the cause of the failure should in the first instance be identified.
    I’ve read on these forums how dealers have sent people home to monitor a condition causing odd mechanical engine noises, starting problems and injector misfire. So dealers diagnostics aren’t always crash hot and their advice isn’t always the best.

    At this point the OP hasn’t been exactly clear on the conditions related to the warnings he had, how he diagnosed and how long he drove it in this condition. He was told clearly that he’s not covered because he bought it second hand (presumably privately). If he bought it secondhand from a dealer, I’d call bullsh!t on such a view as he would be covered by probably the remainder of the factory warranty or statutory warranty.

    But back to DIY oil changes. Imagine if you changed the oils and filter and Holden used this fact as an excuse to not fix your piston slap issue. You wouldn’t be happy and rightly so.

    As such, let’s cut the OP a little slack and not simply slap him down and find blame in what he has done. He may not have done anything different to what any of us may have done given the story so far.
     
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  10. tml678

    tml678 Well-Known Member

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    Where did anyone suggest they would/could do that? I thought it was fairly clear that we were referring to any warranty claim pertaining directly to an issue potentially caused by poor/incorrect servicing.

    No, but in such a case, the onus will certainly fall back onto the dealer because they were given the opportunity to address the issue, unlike in the OP's case.

    Servicing is a little bit more involved than just an oil and filter change these days. There's a reason why they list "connect diagnostic tool" (or whatever it says) in each scheduled service checklist. Most backyard mechanics wouldn't do this so (and i'm not suggesting the OP has done so), it's a bit rich to expect warranty coverage when you've potentially failed to listen to what the car is trying to tell you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
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  11. Ron Burgundy

    Ron Burgundy Well-Known Member

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    In my case I was well aware that if i was to do oil changes myself, holden would have some grounds to knock the claim back. That's why I decided to pay them to do it. Could I have done the oil changes myself ? Absolutely, but I knew the risk and I chose not to take it...
     
  12. markalan1two

    markalan1two Smile and wave boys !!!!

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    Only change would be a known issue with the series of engine, otherwise i agree with Ron not a chance.
     
  13. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    As is, we don’t know the extent of the DIY service OP did (some think a service is just an oil change but it’s more). We do know he only did the last “minor service” himself. And we know he did this after having previous issues with the dealer not supporting him with warranty. Only after this did he state he give up on the dealer for minor services (something probably many of us have also felt at times).

    Neither do we know the exact nature of the prior issues he was having (post #7) and whether they were related to the engine failure (post #1).

    As for the oil warning, he states that “before I had the chance to inspect why I was getting the low oil prompts was because the oil pump basically broke”. But there is nothing in this statement that can be used to clarifies a time frame with respect to “had the chance to inspect” as it’s a subjective statement. So conceivably he could have meant he couldn’t pull over because he was on the freeway in the rain on the way home or alternatively he ignored the warning message for weeks. We know he checked the oil level and it was correct but drained and refilled anyway (why?). But sadly there is just too much uncertainty within the two posts the OP made.

    But OP makes 2 posts and we jump on him and blame him without knowing any facts to support a corporate entity many have had issues and difficulties with. I just think we need to go a little easier on the guy who has only made 8 posts in total, two of which are within this thread.
    Yes you did the prudent thing by having a dealer service your car and thus not giving Holden any chance at using such an out clause. But my point was that in your case, if you changed the oil and filter, such a DIY task would have not contributed to the manufacturing defect that caused the excessive piston slap. So if you had done even one oil change yourself, for Holden to deny what should be a valid claim would have been a rather poor corporate stance and overly heavy handed in my view. But being prudent helped avoid such corporate skullduggery.

    In the OP’s case there is just so much more info we need to know before we can make a valid conclusion.

    Really, I feel for the OP and think he needs to be carefully what he states on public forums and how he presents the failure to Holden. But let’s no forget that ultimately, the dealer drove him away by their poor service and lack of assistance with his battery issues and denying warranty on a VF2. So as the dealers are Holdens representatives, Holden should be a little more accomodating and at least listen to the OP’s claims.
     
  14. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    What you mean like the oil intake o ring failures and oil bypass valve failures? Can’t remember which V6 version these issues were related to but I do remember reading about it a while back.
     
  15. markalan1two

    markalan1two Smile and wave boys !!!!

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    Just meaning if there was a well known fault e.g. bad oil pumps, that a lot of other engines had suffered from maybe then the OP would have a chance at getting something under warranty. I don't know of any
     
  16. 55ams

    55ams New Member

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    ID LOVE TO BE A FLY ON THE WALL, IF HE DOES TAKE IT BACK TO HOLDEN
     
  17. tml678

    tml678 Well-Known Member

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    You don't seem to grasp the intent behind the stipulation that services must be carried out by a qualified mechanic. It is reasonable to expect that such a person has the knowledge and skills to be able to carry out a minor service properly and using correct components. Therefore, if a warranty claim arises, they can probably rule out improper servicing as a causal factor.

    The same CAN'T be said for Joe public who services their own car. GMH doesn't know the OP from a bar of soap, and as far as they know he could have tipped canola oil into the thing, or a rubbish home brand from IGA.(not suggesting for a second this, or anything like it, is the case, but you get my drift).

    There is no 'assumed knowledge' when it comes to home servicing, and if a person who does this expects warranty, knowing that it goes against all manufacturers recommendations and warranty conditions, then the burden of proof should be on them to show that the failed component/s weren't caused by their actions or indeed, omissions. Can't have it both ways and say "I'm going to do my own servicing even though you recommend I don't, but if something goes bang, then the onus is still on you to prove I did something wrong" nope.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
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  18. Ron Burgundy

    Ron Burgundy Well-Known Member

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    Maybe OP can clarify these for us. No point of speculating.
    We know he first wrote about the error message on 2 april. On 15 april he wrote again and said the engine is cactus. Not sure when it happened exactly...

    For me it is quite black and white.
    If the car is out of warranty and the issue is not some well know design/quality fault...you really just need to come to the terms that **** happens and pay the bill.

    If he decided to do an oil change after declined out of warranty issue previously, what are the odds that the Holden will cover it now ?

    I am simply trying to suggest to OP not to waste his or dealer's time as his chances in terms of Having the bill covered by holden are non existent. Happy to be proven otherwise and eat my words.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
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  19. abuch47

    abuch47 Active Member

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    Hey @Ron Burgundy hand over your old 6.2 as a donor to OP;)








    Just to add I will lose my 3yr warranty soon after one since owned service this coming monday. Mechanic will do it and does logbook sevices, is good, loyal as far as I know.

    I've not cracked 30k yet so if I have a Ron like ls3 issue do I have a leg to stand on after that warranty finishes and Ive used a qualified mechanic but not a manufacturer mech?
     
  20. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    I haven't failed to grasp the intent of such warranty clauses which are designed (1) to make it easier for Holden to avoid product warranty in some cases, and (2) to serve to bolster their service business (since most would then naturally gravitate towards the dealer for professional servicing).

    The existence of such clauses within a warranty booklet simply make it much less likely for an owner to challenge Holden when a problem does occur and they invoke the clause. But a warranty booklet was not negotiated between equal parties and as such may not carry the full weight and protection of contract law. However, getting legal does have risk and costs, especially in civil court. If things do get legal, a judge could still look at the specifics and disregard such a clause in this case (or he could consider the clause to be unconscionable and strike it from the warranty booklet altogether, for the benefit of all). The judge could also clarify exactly where the burden of proof be placed in such cases (and such a burden may not be very high). But due to the differences in position and strength of each party, i'd say the burden of proof should be at Holden's feet.

    Thing is, unless Holden can attribute the failure directly to something obviously negligent on the owners behalf, then to simply deny even looking at a potential warranty claim because one changed their oil (minor service in OP's terms) is simply using their position to bully a potentially inappropriate term against a customer. So all i'm really advocating here is that a little more info is needed by Holden, which would require some further investigation by them, before any warranty is denied regardless of the owner oil changes.

    I still feel that to deny any warranty simply because someone changed oil at home isn't identifying a causal factor but rather using clauses to weasel out of their obligations. Guess it's just a difference of opinion than a failure to grasp :p
     

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