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Sudden Loss of Power Steering WHEN DRIVING

Discussion in 'VF Holden Commodore (2013 - 2017)' started by KrisHolden, Nov 4, 2017.

  1. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    @Anthony121 if i believe Holden, it wont happen to me as my late 2017 MSE has the updated rack so in that sence it's a non issue.

    However, I say "if i believe" as all manufacturers were dragged by the regulators into a mandatory recall while they were likely kicking and screaming how their cars weren't impacted by the Takata issue. Seems these manufacturers are not so trust worthy when their product safety deficiencies gets in the way of their profits. And based on this demonstrated lack of honesty from these manufacturers, who's to say the Holden EPS fault condition couldn't cause the EPS to actively fight against the driver in some cases rather than just stop assistance as they claim. And as Holden has had 3 or 4 bights of the apple, how's to say we don't later find out even the updated racks exhibit problems?

    Regardless, in Holden's own words "When driving at low speed, a potential for increased steering efforts exists which may result in reduced steering control. This may pose an in increased risk of accident or injury to vehicle occupants or other road users."

    Subjective bulls!t language like "low speed" on recall notices shouldn't be allowed as the manufacturers could easily use objective language if they want. To objectively specify a speed range at which the issue exists is relatively easy for them but saying "at speeds upto 60 kph (or 80 or 100 kph for argument sake) puts a rather different spin on the severity of the problem. Using subjective language simply leaves it up to the uninitiated reader to decide what this speed is and thus when it becomes dangerous.

    Me, if such an issue ocurs on my vehicle, I'll will not take a conservative view and will consider it a serious safety risk at all speeds regardless of the fact some report it isn't too difficult to steer with the fault. And as some people drive with a couple fingers of one hand on the wheel, they should also consider it a serious safety risk as they are more likley to have a prang should a failure happen to them. So, even as a two hands on wheel driver, if such an EPS issue would occur on my vehicle i'd act accordingly and treat it as a serious safety issue, anything else is short changing me and my familiy.

    As to how one applied the logic defined under ACL, simply put, a major fault allows the purchaser to choose either a repair, replacement of purchase price refund as their chosen remedy. Drop the car and keys off at the selling dealer, document the major fault under ACL and your chosen remedy and expected time frame for the refund, all in writting, and walk out. If the selling dealer or manufacturer will not accept your right to choose the remedy as ascribed under law, then it's a trip to (small claims) court where they will almost certainly loose.

    You can use the ACL to get a refund, or if you really like your car use it as leverage to get a quick fix raether than wait until mid year. After all, ACL is there to protect the buying public, not the manufacturers of unsafe products.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
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  2. Pablito

    Pablito Well-Known Member

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    That's my impression. Those who have a failure get a whole new rack for now. And those at risk will get the kit fitted when available in 6 months time.
     
  3. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

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    Quite simply, everything comes down to risk. They would have assessed the risk, run the algorithms and made an assessment. Their insurers would likely have had a say in it too.
    It's easy to jump to worst case / chicken little scenario. But, the reality is, if companies all took a 100% risk averse approach, none of us could afford to live. Right or wrong, the proof is in the statistics, no one has died or been seriously injured...
     
  4. VS 5.0

    VS 5.0 Well-Known Member

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    Yet.....
     
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  5. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    Yes everything comes down to risk.

    However, a company would assess risk using a different set of criteria than a consumer would with their family sitting in the car.

    Glossing over all those companies Takata risk assessments resulting in nothing more to recall is rather convenient. But now we know a mandatory recall forced many more impacted vehicle into the light which just highlights the difference in risk assessment between the manufacturers and regulators. And consumers need to also keep regulatory capture in mind when blindly thinking regulators will look after their interests.

    So you may say it’s a chicken little view of the sky falling but I do hope you never find out how bad it can be through first hand experiance because a recall wasn’t pushed or you ignored it.

    Years may roll by and technology may improve but the fundamentals of people stay the same. So maybe have a read of the 1965 book unsafe st any speed by Ralph Nader or alternatively watch the 1991 movie Class Action which is based on the Ford Pinto fuel system fires, recalls and litigation and the disaster of their cost benefit analysis (risk assessment in other words).
     
  6. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

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    Or ever...Meanwhile, how many people have died from suicide, or incorrectly prescribed medicines etc? I'm just saying, a bit of perspective people.
    How does one walk out the door each day and drive to work, or get on a plane, with such a low risk appetite? Sheesh!
     
  7. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    ^
    Equating risk related to sub standard product design to risk of suicides, medication over prescription or misuse, though sad that such death happen, is irrelevant to issues of safety recalls.

    When a safety recall is issued on a sub standard product design, the risks have already been determined to be great enough that a safety recall must actually exist. In essence the safety recall is there to mitigate the risks due to the shitty design, be it a toaster or a vehicle.

    And in terms of risk, I’ve said it before, the takata kill rate is rather small if you look at global deaths as a % of problem airbags in vehicles sold. But if 1 death occured because of EPS failure over the 80,000 odd vehicles impacted, I’d think the kill rate would be an order(orders?) of magnitude worse.

    That’s where the perspective should be... not downplaying this issue as being trivial because some young strong man can cope with EPS failure as we’ve read on this forum before. Think of your frail old grandma, who is legally able to drive, when you want some perspective. Sheesh!
     
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  8. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

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    Yeah fair enough comment re risk comparisons. One should avoid posting online after copious quantities of wine at xmas parties...
    I suppose I just have a different view of the risks. But, we're all different.
    I see my Daughter's Astra with the Takata airbag as a far greater risk. Like millions of others, she's still waiting and all Holden have said is "wait and dont disable the airbags".
     
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  9. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    sometimes the discussions become more interesting with a few glasses of wine ;)

    The Takata airbag issue is one of real complexities as the authorities have likley done the numbers and determined that if the problem airbags are disabled until replaced, likely more people would die in crashes than if they were left connected until replaced. I guess in part that is why they double changing some old alpha bags for new beta bags with the similar problem. It will take some years for the danger to manifest in the swapped beta bag but give time for the industry to redesign and again swap the part for something safe (if an explosive can ever be safe).

    Which ever way you cut it and slice it, we are fodder for the machine. But I’d feel more comfortable if the regulators were more open about the stats, probabilities, etc. Only then could we know if the risk is acceptable or if they are playing to the manufacturers tune so we could take our own actions.

    Me, I think loss of EPS assistance is a risk and if it occured, I’d not want to wait for kits to become available is all I have Ben trying to say.
     
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  10. VS 5.0

    VS 5.0 Well-Known Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Takata issue will only raise its ugly head in the event if a crash, whereas the EPS issue has the possibility of causing said crash.
     
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  11. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

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    Yes, it's a risk. No doubt.

    She's still waiting for the beta bag BTW. It's a waiting game with a ticking time bomb.
     
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  12. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    Yes, @VS 5.0, correct.

    AIUI, the alpha airbag is the worst as it is much more susceptible to moisture and heat degradation of the explosive compound and thus much more likely to grenade in a crash. But it’s not a certainty otherwise every alpha airbag would have grenaded in a crash and that’s simply not the case. The beta bags are much safer as they contain a desiccant that is slowly used up as it absorbs moisture from the air and then the same degradation issues of the alpha bag start to come into play. Basically put a beta bag is safe for a while before effectively turning into an alpha bag and nobody has said how long these processes take (as it likely heavily depends on where you live). So the alpha bags are prioritised in the mandatory recall and in some cases changed to beta bags if nothing ‘fixed’ is available. And beta bags are changed as ‘fixed’ bags become available.

    If I was living in a high humidity climate, I’d be more concerned.

    Working our risk profile for being killed by an alpha or beta airbag based on climate and comparing it to being killed in a crash with a passivated airbag would be a rather interesting and difficult exercise. I suspect it’s safer to keep the beta airbag working and change it sooner in humid climates as compared to dry climates.

    The EPS failure is a much simpler risk profile in comparison and obviously worthy of a safety recall.

    Without numbers one can not really say with is more concerning but I’d be much more concerned with an alpha airbag in NSW or Queensland than an EPS failure...

    Lucky our VF’s don’t have alpha airbags as that would be a double wam.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
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  13. Anthony121

    Anthony121 Well-Known Member

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    Why is everyone making a big deal of the eps failure. You still have control of the car. The steering shaft does not break. The car will not suddenly go left or right. You will be able to ull over!
     
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  14. Forg

    Forg Well-Known Member

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    To be honest it’s my better-half I’m more worried about ... but then she coped with the dozen-or-so CAS-caused sudden stalls in the 10yo Ecomoo VS when we first got it.
     
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  15. Banjo79

    Banjo79 Active Member

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    I would argue with over 60000 vehicles to be inspected, Holden is the one making a big deal of it.
     
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  16. Banjo79

    Banjo79 Active Member

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    Happy Holidays to all the VF owners, Wishing everyone safe EPS and many happy returns....to Holden.
     
  17. Look44

    Look44 New Member

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    I'm surprised they issued a recall, better late than never and i wonder if this forum had any influence on the decision or more likely just the huge number of affected vehicles. I got my recall letter so for those of us that had this replaced before the recall should we still have it checked or what?
     
  18. VS 5.0

    VS 5.0 Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
     
  19. wetwork65

    wetwork65 A wet business

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    Doubtful Holden cares about any public perception any more.
    BTW - I haven't got my letters yet. Maybe slow to send out in Sydney?
     
  20. wetwork65

    wetwork65 A wet business

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    Great - just got my 2 letters. Filed away until Holden decide that they have the parts and the next letter in the series arrives. Hopefully steering will not fail before the middle of the year.
     

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