Sudden Loss of Power Steering WHEN DRIVING

[lmoengnr]

I had my first VF fail on me and I drove it 35 kms in distance home and part of that was freeway. I was able to steer the car without power assistance although heavy you can still control the steering. I think its more of a shock there isn't assistance. Back in the old days there was no power steering thats when you had to use your muscles to turn the wheel.

And bias ply tires didn't help with the power steering by 'armstrong'...

 

[wetwork65]

I had my first VF fail on me and I drove it 35 kms in distance home and part of that was freeway. I was able to steer the car without power assistance although heavy you can still control the steering. I think its more of a shock there isn't assistance. Back in the old days there was no power steering thats when you had to use your muscles to turn the wheel.

Agree but the gearing is different power steer vs manual steer so it is much harder work.

 

[Anthony121]

Agree but the gearing is different power steer vs manual steer so it is much harder work.

Yes of course but what I'm saying it's not possible to not turn the wheel. Stationary is a problem but while car is driving it is possible to control it.

 

[Skylarking]

Yes of course but what I'm saying it's not possible to not turn the wheel. Stationary is a problem but while car is driving it is possible to control it.

Yes there is mechanical linkage between the steering wheels and the front wheels but that’s not the be all and end all of vehicle control. One must look past the simplicities of the mechanical connection and look at the powerful electric motors and the electronic system that control the steering.

If the fault the EPS system is suffering from means the system is actively fighting the driver, who may be a small young female, it may be much more difficult to turn the steering wheels effectively which means control of the vehicle is completely compromised. Heck, depending on the torque capability of the EPS motor and the fault actually occurring, it may be near impossible to turn the steering wheel.

In any case not all drivers are brawny blokes with Senna type reflexes that may better cope with failure of active control which is why this fault is classed a serious safety related defect requiring a recall… The bad part of it all was that Holden took way too long to acknowledge the seriousness of it while they looked for cheap solution…

And really, none of us can say for certain how the system was engineered or whether the system can not actively fight against the driver… or who will be behind the wheel of a car when such ghosts in the machine raise their heads…

Such is a flawed way of thinking about it unless you’ve had detailed involvement in the EPS system design and test.. I haven't had design or test involvement but i loved control systems theory at uni… Regardless I also don’t trust the simplicities of a mechanical connection that is controlled by powerful motors and more importantly now companies handle costly design screw ups…

And on that note, history shows that bad findings can be buried during the test phase… Such shitfuckery is even done by aircraft companies. In one example of shitfuckery, Boeing decided to ignore (and bury) its own test results that saw an outward opening cargo door fail during ground tests. Why, because it was expensive to fix and wasn’t a mandated test for airworthiness compliance. They lost two or three aeroplanes and with them hundreds of lives…

I simply can’t trust GM/Holden knowing that GM has done its own shitfuckery that cost people their lives; the ignition key saga being just one.

Put pure and simple, it’s a rather dangerous fault and shouldn’t be trivialised by saying people can still control their vehicle. And because of the nature of the fault, some may have already killed and we’d never know it was due to EPS failure…

 

[wetwork65]

Yes there is mechanical linkage between the steering wheels and the front wheels but that’s not the be all and end all of vehicle control. One must look past the simplicities of the mechanical connection and look at the powerful electric motors and the electronic system that control the steering.

If the fault the EPS system is suffering from means the system is actively fighting the driver, who may be a small young female, it may be much more difficult to turn the steering wheels effectively which means control of the vehicle is completely compromised. Heck, depending on the torque capability of the EPS motor and the fault actually occurring, it may be near impossible to turn the steering wheel.

In any case not all drivers are brawny blokes with Senna type reflexes that may better cope with failure of active control which is why this fault is classed a serious safety related defect requiring a recall… The bad part of it all was that Holden took way too long to acknowledge the seriousness of it while they looked for cheap solution…

And really, none of us can say for certain how the system was engineered or whether the system can not actively fight against the driver… or who will be behind the wheel of a car when such ghosts in the machine raise their heads…

Such is a flawed way of thinking about it unless you’ve had detailed involvement in the EPS system design and test.. I haven't had design or test involvement but i loved control systems theory at uni… Regardless I also don’t trust the simplicities of a mechanical connection that is controlled by powerful motors and more importantly now companies handle costly design screw ups…

And on that note, history shows that bad findings can be buried during the test phase… Such shitfuckery is even done by aircraft companies. In one example of shitfuckery, Boeing decided to ignore (and bury) its own test results that saw an outward opening cargo door fail during ground tests. Why, because it was expensive to fix and wasn’t a mandated test for airworthiness compliance. They lost two or three aeroplanes and with them hundreds of lives…

I simply can’t trust GM/Holden knowing that GM has done its own shitfuckery that cost people their lives; the ignition key saga being just one.

Put pure and simple, it’s a rather dangerous fault and shouldn’t be trivialised by saying people can still control their vehicle. And because of the nature of the fault, some may have already killed and we’d never know it was due to EPS failure…

Again, well said.
I have driven cars fitted with hydraulic power steering that had had the engine stop or fail to start a couple of times. I had to keep steering, in order to get the car moved to a safe place or to control it while slowing down.
It was quite possible to steer the cars, albeit damn hard work and I'm not the biggest person.
With the Holden EPS, I would hope the system shuts down completely, so that there is no chance of it intermittently and unexpectantly operating with or against you. If it was just fretting corrosion of contacts, then the power to the drive motor may just stop, but I don't know the true failure mode, or which of the contacts failed.
What really pissed me off was the extreme slowness of getting the fix applied to my cars, due to the lack of parts and/or interest by Holden. Or was this just "goodbye Australia - have a nice day"?
In these days of planned shortages of everything, I wonder how much longer it would take to get all cars sorted out, e.g. Takata air bags.
How many cars are being driven unfixed due to ignorance or the delaying tactics of car makers?

 

[lmoengnr]

What really pissed me off was the extreme slowness of getting the fix applied to my cars, due to the lack of parts and/or interest by Holden. Or was this just "goodbye Australia - have a nice day"?
In these days of planned shortages of everything, I wonder how much longer it would take to get all cars sorted out, e.g. Takata air bags.
How many cars are being driven unfixed due to ignorance or the delaying tactics of car makers?

Don't forget about 'waiting for stock' for the intake rocker replacements...

 

[Paulo77]

My concern is that the fix (a new rack) doesn't remedy the issue going forward. I'd hate in another few years time to have the same thing happen to me. Because they are not properly addressing this issue in an open and transparent way I'm not confident that this won't be a reoccurrig problem for the electric steering

My concern is that the fix (a new rack) doesn't remedy the issue going forward. I'd hate in another few years time to have the same thing happen to me. Because they are not properly addressing this issue in an open and transparent way I'm not confident that this won't be a reoccurrig problem for the electric steering commodores.

Was the design of the rack changed between series I and series II?

 

[Forg]

Was the design of the rack changed between series I and series II?

Not knowing the answer to your question 100%, but extrapolating from the info I've read on this very repository of awesomeness ... the general design didn't change, but they did change electrical connections. It also doesn't seem to have been quite in time for the start of VFII production (or at least they wanted to use-up all the old ones), because some people have found a few early VFII VINs on the recall list.

 

[Skylarking]

Was the design of the rack changed between series I and series II?

AIUI the new rack had upgrades around the connector mounting and the connector itself got gold plated pins which together reduced the occurrence of fretting corrosion. Not sure if both sides of the connector received gold pins or it was just the rack side connector.

And once Holden actually decided to do a recall on this long known safety issue, they no longer replaced racks but instead used an repair kit they had developed which was a more cost effective solution for them.

Only once the voluntary recall was decided was there any information available to the Australian public and it was dumbed down and had no technical information as to the cause or technical remedy… Unfortunately no one has posted a copy or the TSB associated with the recall which outlines the actual work tasks and parts lists.

Sadly, Holden were rather coy about this (and any) safety defect as they provide little information during the evolution of their final solution. As such, I’m not sure how robust the solution is and whether we’ll see re-emerging failures with EPS assistance, guess time will tell…

Also sad was the fact that much of the technical information referenced in this thread (by me) was actually obtained from the US government NHTSA website while our own gov safety websites provided nothing. Only when the voluntary recall was initiated was there any info and that was dumbed down consumer docs on the ACCC website.

It’s very wrong that Aussie law doesn’t require anything other than dumbed down stuff saying a safety fault exists and that it will be fixed by the manufacturer. The USA require that all fault or suspected faults and their related correspondence between a manufacturer and their service providers to be publicly available via the NHTSA website. Wish we had similar (we used to before govco reorganisations where FORS responsabilities were gobbled up by DOTARs and ACCC)…

Will the current solution last? who knows… we may be having a new round of EPS assistance failure discussions in another 5 or 10 years.

No doubt you can detect a little scepticism and lack of corporate trust on my part. That’s because a corporate “trust us” mindsets just doesn’t sit well with me when all tha5 matters to corporations is the $ and many have demonstrated they aren’t a trustworthy mob as history shows.

 

[dassaur]

Tsb for recall here.

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I've posted it before.