Suddenly it's Hammer Time !!

[vc commodore]

Interesting that once the lifters are cleaned, they are ok to reuse

From what I understand, on the old 5 litre V8 it’s easier to pull the lifters from the engine without spending lots of $$ as no need to take the heads off. So maybe it should be a planned maintenance task every 100,000 odd kms.

Pity the LS3 need new head gaskets and head bolts, amongst other bits, just to get the lifters out to clean them. Makes such planned maintenance more expensive since the lifters are under the heads themselves what were the engineers thinking

Not the first manufacturer to have it so the head had to be removed to get to the lifters.....So we shouldn't be so harsh on Holden engineerers

 

[Skylarking]

^ A bad design is a bad design which doesn’t get any better cause others do the same. They should all be bagged, not applauded.

(edited to fix crazy auto correct)

 

[vc commodore]

^ A bad design is a bad design which doesn’t get any better cause others do the same. Yne6shoild all be bagged, not applauded.

Not applauding them....Just mentioning they aren't the only manufacturer that does the same thing.

Also lets face it....If an engine is looked after, these problems shouldn't occur...And I'm assuming that's what the engineers rely on

 

[Immortality]

Not the first manufacturer to have it so the head had to be removed to get to the lifters.....So we shouldn't be so harsh on Holden engineerers

Nothing to do with the Holden engineers, you can point the finger at the yanks for that design. Having said that, there is probably a good reason for the extra metal in the block and heads which most likely has to do with block strength,rigidity because the intake manifold is no longer a structural component been made of plastic.

 

[Skylarking]

Holden engineers work within the limitations of the GM processes, both engineering and accounting wise... very much accounting wise. So why not paint them with the same brush even though they may not have worked on the engine design. They are all cut from the same cloth within the GM world.

Sadly, design these days seems all focussed on production ease and cost cutting rather than ongoing maintainability or ease of modification. So for enthusiasts, such ‘choices’ can’t be considered anything but a crap design. Where the design was done and who the actual engineering group was is not so important, only the end results.

And if putting lifters under the heads was to save 1kg and $10 by using a plastic manifold (that will disintegrate over time within the heat of the engine bay) well, they had a choice to use better quality stronger stiffer alloys within the manifold that could be cast thinner (instead of loosing most of the weight savings by beefing up the engine). So I don’t really buy into such arguments.

Sadly, the VF2 was cheapened as compared to VF which was cheapened as compared to VE... A breed is supposed to get better with each generation so won’t excuse the tight arse engineering whether actually done by Holden, GM or some ‘guru consultant’. Holden is Holden and the design choices rests with those building it.

Looking at the new Toyota Supra, they chose to put the timing chain at the rear of the block making cam changes a rather expensive engine out affair (from the little I’ve read about the car). So such things are hardly a Holden/GM specific behaviour but it’s not something to say is a great design for enthusiasts who love to mod

 

[Immortality]

Of course it's all about production and you should know by now that bean counters rule this world, engineers design and bean counters over-rule...

 

[figjam]

Looking at the new Toyota Supra, they chose to put the timing chain at the rear of the block making cam changes a rather expensive engine out affair (from the little I’ve read about the car). So such things are hardly a Holden/GM specific behaviour but it’s not something to say is a great design for enthusiasts who love to mod

That would be the result of BMW engineering brilliance, rather than Toyota ?

 

[Derekthetree]

That would be the result of BMW engineering brilliance, rather than Toyota ?

Nah, Toyota just mounted it back to front

 

[figjam]

Nah, Toyota just mounted it back to front

Nah, can't fool me with that. If that was true, the Supra would be faster in reverse than it is forward.

 

[vc commodore]

Holden engineers work within the limitations of the GM processes, both engineering and accounting wise... very much accounting wise. So why not paint them with the same brush even though they may not have worked on the engine design. They are all cut from the same cloth within the GM world.

Sadly, design these days seems all focussed on production ease and cost cutting rather than ongoing maintainability or ease of modification. So for enthusiasts, such ‘choices’ can’t be considered anything but a crap design. Where the design was done and who the actual engineering group was is not so important, only the end results.

And if putting lifters under the heads was to save 1kg and $10 by using a plastic manifold (that will disintegrate over time within the heat of the engine bay) well, they had a choice to use better quality stronger stiffer alloys within the manifold that could be cast thinner (instead of loosing most of the weight savings by beefing up the engine). So I don’t really buy into such arguments.

Sadly, the VF2 was cheapened as compared to VF which was cheapened as compared to VE... A breed is supposed to get better with each generation so won’t excuse the tight arse engineering whether actually done by Holden, GM or some ‘guru consultant’. Holden is Holden and the design choices rests with those building it.

Looking at the new Toyota Supra, they chose to put the timing chain at the rear of the block making cam changes a rather expensive engine out affair (from the little I’ve read about the car). So such things are hardly a Holden/GM specific behaviour but it’s not something to say is a great design for enthusiasts who love to mod

Here you are commenting about been counting effecting things, yet there are instances (not necessarily you) where complaints were free flowing about the general public propping up car manufacturing in this country….

Unfortunately as immortality mentioned, been counting wins hand over foot....They need to cut costs producing a car, to make it more affordable for people to buy.

As for silly designs....There are cars out there, where a silly thing like changing a set of plugs is an hour + job....That dates back to the late 90's maybe early 2000's....

Modifications...I know of one manufacturerer from the 70's, where the bean counters refused to sign off on a simple material change for a distributer cog, to save them breaking.....The cog breaking was more previalant in consistant high rev applications.....So bean counting when designing cars has been around for years.....