Just Commodores Forum Community

It takes just a moment to join our fantastic community

Register

The Research and Development Thread!!

Discussion in 'Envyous Customs' started by TazzI, Sep 22, 2015.

  1. TazzI

    TazzI Envyous Customs

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    177
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Location:
    W.A
    Members Ride:
    VE SS Ute
    Thanks for the honest opinion Andrew!

    :D I like the *cough*.

    That was the original plan, but 3D printing is extremely slow. And 'sometimes' doesnt pan out, due to warped sections, so it has to be redone. I double checked the 3d printing costs, and shipping is also another killer. For what would be essentially 15g of plastic, it would be upwards of 70 per case, this seems to only go down once 100's of cases are bought... which by then the plastic molding could be done!

    I don't want to keep holding off, but releasing a product with a sub-par casing is just asking for bad reviews and irritated customers. Iv shown the new cable to a few customers when out doing jobs, and the common response I get is "Is that the case it will come with?". Most people have never seen a 3d printed object, and dont realise that they don't give a perfect seamless finish.

    The above does seem silly all this work for a case. But, I know if I bought something for good money, I would expect better.
     
    VS_Pete likes this.
  2. TazzI

    TazzI Envyous Customs

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    177
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Location:
    W.A
    Members Ride:
    VE SS Ute
    The J2534 support does seem like the best option for the next step. For those that are curious, think of J2534 as an actual language such as English. English has a specific set of rules and requirements for everyone to understand it and communicate (Such as using the alphabet). So if you speak the language correctly, then you are understood correctly.

    So all tools that support and follow the J2534 protocol, will all speak the same language, so the software only needs to understand one language rather than multiple.


    So.. what are the Pros and Cons of this situation??

    Starting with the Pros:
    1) Supporting this diagnostic protocol means that there are HEAPs of tools all supported at once.

    2) By supporting J2534, this means a final software solution can be provided (MUCH) faster. Not have to manufacture the custom hardware (Cable) is a massive help.

    3) All new tools from all sorts of different manufactures will be supported as they will all follow the J2534 protocol.

    4) Getting the software out means that my next focus can be back on the custom envy cable to add its support.

    Now for the Cons:
    1) J2534 scantools are a little pricey. Some support more diagnostic languages than others which does affect their cost. I will end up stocking a suitable tool that Im happy with as a kit with the software. Otherwise people can purchase a J2534 compliant tool from other places to use with the software. And to check that their tool does work (Plus the supported vehicles), I will have a quick demo/test version that will check over the tool.

    2) If bundled with a tool, it will end up more expensive than what I would like. My aim is to provide affordable diagnostics, but the actual J2534 cable is costly part (depending on the cable!)

    3) Im technically taking a step backwards in development. As I need to start from scratch to support the J2534 protocol, and begin testing on multiple modules on bench and in car.


    Hopefully that gets everyone on the same page! I will be looking into some sort of testing system for people to try out with their tools as I develop. Since Ill need people with older and newer commodores to test their own tool (If you have one).

    Im actually really excited for this, been a while since Iv been so eager to wake up and begin programming!
     
  3. nzv8farmer

    nzv8farmer Member

    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2013
    Location:
    Hyden, WA
    Members Ride:
    SV6 04 VZ
    Although a short term step backwards I think that the long term gains could be great if I understand the difference in the diagnostic language as you mentioned, if it’s a language used by many manufacturers, then it maybe opens the door in the long run for easier programming of other makes and a more multi purpose software one day that works ob more makes. I think short term lose long term gain as far as the software side of things go. And as for the Envy cable, I think taking the time to get it right will be worth it long term, you want something that is slick and easy to market as well as easy to use. If it costs a bit more but ends up being a better product it will sell on reputation easily. Don’t know/understand the costs that go into the software side of things, but from the sounds of what’s being planned, I’m happy to pay what it’s worth. Chinese crap is Chinese crap, no point trying to compete with that

    I can’t wait to see the developments here, top work so far!!
     
  4. TazzI

    TazzI Envyous Customs

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    177
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Location:
    W.A
    Members Ride:
    VE SS Ute
    Iv imprinted 300+pages of technical documents into my head now to understand this new protocol. Its not heaps of pages, but its all interlinked so you have to understand each one for it to all come together.

    It does make sense, and will be fine to integrate. Although it is a little vague on communicating to vehicle that uses ALDL.. so thats going to be a bit of a trial/error situation I think.

    The next interesting thing, is alot of these tools actually support a wireless connection (Using wifi). So wireless option should still be possible this way.

    The next step is to get each diagnostic language functioning in a basic application, so this includes:
    - ALDL: Used in all older commodores such as VR,VS,VT,VY
    - VPW: Used in all LS1 V8 vehicles for engine/transmission diagnostics
    - HSCAN: This is normal CAN, used in VZ,VE,VF for engine/trans and abs modules
    - SWCAN: This is single wire CAN, used in VE,VF for body modules
    - MSCAN: Used in other manufactures

    Connecting and detecting the scantool is all done, its now onto the interesting part of interacting with connected modules!

    Ill be looking for testers as soon as I have the above functionality working!
     
    rucxy and Dirbatua like this.
  5. Dirbatua

    Dirbatua Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,825
    Likes Received:
    33
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2003
    Location:
    S/e Victoria
    Members Ride:
    VX SS Manual, VT Berlina
    Well i got access to VR-VE so both v6 and v8 so if you need any one of those i can do some testing for you.

    I've got a J2534 USB cable around here somewhere as well, cant remember what i used it for some toyota or something years ago.
     
  6. TazzI

    TazzI Envyous Customs

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    177
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Location:
    W.A
    Members Ride:
    VE SS Ute
    Perfect, need to start making a list of which cables support what.

    Part of the detection process is to work out which protocols the scantool supports. Some support more than others, some only support HSCAN, other support everything physically possible plus more.

    This early app testing will indicate which vehicles and modules the tool will support. Hopefully between a few testers and tools, we can come up with a good list.
     
  7. TazzI

    TazzI Envyous Customs

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    177
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Location:
    W.A
    Members Ride:
    VE SS Ute
    Always an interesting day when dealing with GM/Holden related R&D.

    As always, GMs documentation is (extremely) lacking. The ALDL protocol in the official standardized documents for J2534 literally says the ALDL protocol has no predefined format. My interpretation of this is: "GM has been too lazy to provide us with further info.. so you will need to nut it out yourself".

    *Sigh*.. so itll be a bit of a trial and error setup to get it going. Realistically.. all I need it to do is read messages and write messages at a bare minimum. All other 'luxuries' can be ignored till a later date (Such hardware filters) since they can be performed inside the software.

    Have read through the documents about a dozen times now, getting to the point I can actually recall page numbers for specific topics :p
     
    VS_Pete likes this.
  8. TazzI

    TazzI Envyous Customs

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    177
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Location:
    W.A
    Members Ride:
    VE SS Ute
    Iv also contacted a coupe dozen J2534 manufacturers. Looks like theres quite a few kits that are(reasonable) prices that support all GM protocols except ALDL, there are a few that claim support but need to ask for further information.
     
    VS_Pete likes this.
  9. TazzI

    TazzI Envyous Customs

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    177
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Location:
    W.A
    Members Ride:
    VE SS Ute
    The plot thickens!
    Most of the vendors that claim support on ALDL and VPW have absolutely no documentation on how to implement them with their tools. :rolleyes:
    It seems almost impossible to acknowledge support for something.. without knowing anything about it.. so it does make me wonder if they do infact support the protocols.

    A big name vendor which Im keen to support has graciously accepted to help out and track down documentation, this actually means getting their engineers involved to either find documentation, or to begin putting documentation together which explains how to use them. This will save me a huge headache for R&D.
     
    VS_Pete likes this.
  10. TazzI

    TazzI Envyous Customs

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    177
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Location:
    W.A
    Members Ride:
    VE SS Ute
    What Iv done so far software wise is:
    - Implement entire J2534 protocol to support all GM protocols, plus a few others
    - Implement ability to identify any installed J2534 drivers and their connected scantools
    - Identify supported vehicles and car modules based off of the scantools supported protocols
    - Establish connection to scantool, and test communication to vehicle

    The above doesnt sound like too much, but the J2534 has been quite a learning curve, and each of those steps have lots of checks to ensure that everything required for successfully communication is present. Essentially the aim has been to design a bullet proof communication system between software and hardware.

    I am able to test and communicate to everything from VZ and newer. Its just the older vehicles with ALDL and VPW that need a bit of a custom touch to get up and running which Im currently working on.

    Once those two protocols are sussed out, it will be full throttle for testing in cars and getting some trial versions of this app out there for people to try out.
     
    Wozza, VS_Pete and rucxy like this.
  11. TazzI

    TazzI Envyous Customs

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    177
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Location:
    W.A
    Members Ride:
    VE SS Ute
    There are no words to explain the mind melting, teeth grinding, head smashing couple days Iv had with getting ALDL supported.o_O

    The way its implemented by the J2534 protocol, it doesnt actually work well on our commodores. The idea they had for it was ok, but practically it doesnt work out, since the tool will wait until it finds suitable 'idle' time before it tries to communicate... although it never believes there is a suitable time to do so in our commodores!!

    But, have managed to come up with a workaround which so far hasnt skipped a beat. I imagine GM probably implemented a similar workaround for their own systems otherwise it simply would not work as advertised.. although they do have alot of problems with communication dropouts, least my workaround doesnt have that problem.

    Currently there is a VT BCM, VY LS1 ECU, VZ V6 ECU, VE BCM, VE Radio and VF Cluster all hooked up at once, and can communicate to all of them using the one cable and software!

    Before I can transfer this into the new NVS application, will need to do more live testing in multiple cars. I can hook up to almost anything on a bench setup, but its not the same as live car conditions.

    Iv had some eager beavers email about helping with testing (Which I am welcoming!), but I do need you to have a J2534 compliant device otherwise you wont be able to do anything. Theres no recommended tools at the moment, Im still sussing out various different suppliers.
     
    VF Ute and Dirbatua like this.
  12. Dirbatua

    Dirbatua Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,825
    Likes Received:
    33
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2003
    Location:
    S/e Victoria
    Members Ride:
    VX SS Manual, VT Berlina
    nice to see your getting somewhere :) funny how just a new way of looking at something can reenergise motivation
     
    VS_Pete likes this.
  13. TazzI

    TazzI Envyous Customs

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    177
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Location:
    W.A
    Members Ride:
    VE SS Ute
    Theres no words to describe my motivation for this. The scantool hurdle held me up for too long. Dedicating all R&D time on this now.
     
    Dirbatua and VS_Pete like this.
  14. TazzI

    TazzI Envyous Customs

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    177
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Location:
    W.A
    Members Ride:
    VE SS Ute
    Ripped out a white board over the weekend, and brainstormed ideas with some mates on how to implement a vehicle definition scheme that will be 'future' proof for newer additions down the road. I kept comin across limitations in my own design.. so needed some fresh eyes on the problem.

    After some of the worse ideas I have ever heard in my life (They really were that bad!), we eventually got some traction and designed a system which I am pretty happy with it. I can safety say I wouldnt have come up with the same kind of solution by my self.

    Some of the starting ideas were pretty far fetched. One of the first ideas to come out was to create an application which could self learn and teach itself the entire car so it didnt even need a database.... so.. basically artificial intelligence (AI). My simple response back was "Who do you think I am.. google?". That idea got a bit carried away.. by the end of it I was accused of creating skynet :rolleyes:

    But overall.. progress! I then managed to stay up until 2am this morning implementing the new design. Theirs no words to describe the relief I had to see it working correctly.

    Todays job is to add in some vehicle definitions for the following cars:
    - VY V6 ECU/BCM/Cluster
    - VT/VX/VY LS1 V8 ECU
    - VZ V6 ECU
    - VE V6/V8 ECU/Cluster/Radio
    - VF V6/V8 ECU/Cluster/Radio

    Its basically just going to 'check' those modules are in the car by sending out a simple "Are you there?" message. If this goes smoothly (No reason why not), then its time to migrate it into the NVS project so the visuals are all in place, and I can start putting up some demo videos showing new additions while developing!
     
    Dirbatua and VS_Pete like this.
  15. TazzI

    TazzI Envyous Customs

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    177
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Location:
    W.A
    Members Ride:
    VE SS Ute
    Oh, while its on my mind. I have been pounded with the same question over and over... "which J2534 scantool do I need?".

    At the moment, Im still working out a list which indicates some of the J2534 devices on the market, and which vehicles/modules they will support. Not all J2534 support all the require protocols (Languages), which is why Im putting together a list of tools.

    I wont be able to physically test every tool, so the list is based off of what information I have been provided by the manufactures. As each tool is tested by either myself or someone else, I will update it with a confirmed status.
     
    Dirbatua and VS_Pete like this.
  16. VS_Pete

    VS_Pete Donating Member

    Messages:
    3,622
    Likes Received:
    1,351
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Members Ride:
    VE II SV6 MY12 SPORTWAGON
    Keep up the good work mate:)
     
  17. TazzI

    TazzI Envyous Customs

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    177
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Location:
    W.A
    Members Ride:
    VE SS Ute
    All good so far!
    Tested and working on the modules connected to the bench. And also connection to my VE ute.
    This means the core functionality is complete, its now moving onto end user functionality.

    Todays (fairly cruisey) day will be to migrate everything into the NVS application.

    Next on the list:
    - Continue to add vehicle definition files
    - Brand new licensing system

    Then... finally.. we can start seeing some pictures/videos of the new setup in action.
     
    VS_Pete and Dirbatua like this.
  18. caaf

    caaf Member

    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Joined:
    May 11, 2009
    Location:
    Melb, Vic
    Members Ride:
    VYII Equipe S/wagon V6
    Top stuff Jason. We all do appreciate the time you take to update us on your progress.
     
  19. TazzI

    TazzI Envyous Customs

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    177
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Location:
    W.A
    Members Ride:
    VE SS Ute
    Next update.
    Migrated to the new application. Was a bit more work then expecting as I had to restructure a few things.

    Any programmer will know the feeling, when you look over old coding.. and wonder what the hell you were thinking.. and end up completely redoing it as its way more efficient and to the point. I dont think you ever stop learning with programming, forever growing your knowledge and problem solving ability.

    Anyways, all integrated with the NVS application. To ensure everything was logging and working on all the protocols, I did a 2hour logging session on each of them.

    The lucky last protocol to test was ALDL, and typically.. it has some weird issue. After logging after for about 26mins (On the dot), my old implementation was freezing up. The actual problem was my 'workaround' solution for ALDL to get it working which I explained on a previous post. It seemed the J2534 protocol didnt like what I was doing, causing it to completely freeze up after so many requests.

    So.. went back to the drawing boards and completely re-wrote its implementation over the weekend.. and.. (Thankfully) problem solved!

    Rechecked all protocols again (8+ hours total of leaving it logging).. and we are back on track.

    Next on the list is to get this live data to be showing on the gauges!
     
  20. TazzI

    TazzI Envyous Customs

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    177
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Location:
    W.A
    Members Ride:
    VE SS Ute
    Been a interesting week and a bit!

    My VE ute had its instrument cluster fail... then the partners cars ABS module failed (recall covers this) and the new Ford I got for R&D had a hit and run!

    *Sigh*

    Anyways, just thrown together this basic preview video this afternoon:


    Do note, I threw in dummy data to navigate through the screens. Simply because the main database with all the diagnostic information is still being put together. Due to the way that is designed, I cant demonstrate with a half completed section or it will fail.

    Will be doing a live data demo for the engine computer in my own VE soon.
     

Share This Page