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Tyres rubbing with narrower VL diff

Discussion in 'VN - VP Holden Commodore (1988 - 1993)' started by VN Commy, Oct 11, 2006.

  1. VN Commy

    VN Commy New Member

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    Im just wondering if anybody else running a VL diff has the same problem?

    I put it in to upgrade to 3.45:1 gears and LSD (I'm loving it :yeah: ) but because the whole unit is narrower than the VN diff, both back tyres rub on the inside sidewalls (I don't need an adjustable pan hard rod, both tyres rub equally). I'm running 225/50/16 tyres on SS rims. It only does it pulling into driveways or going hard around a corner and hitting a bump. Oh yea it's got ultra lows in the back.

    Is there spacers or anything available to fix this? Or anyone know of another way? I only need a tiny bit more clearance on both sides.

    Cheers
     
  2. VL Berlina 5speed

    VL Berlina 5speed Apprentice Panel Pusher

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    spacers are illegal in SA i not sure in new zealand but is it worth it making it illegal if it is?

    the rubbing would be beacuse the vl rear axel is 1 inch smaller then the vn axel, when people do the swap of vn rear to vl it stops the abillity of using wider rims meaning have to stick with narrow stockies

    possible solution is get a vn housing and place the vl lsd centre in that using all the gears, and get the axels lengthed to fit.

    didnt vns have 28 spline axels? if so find a pair and slide them in assuming you have the 28spline vl lsd
     
  3. s0sage

    s0sage Posting aimlessly ..

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    heres a novel idea ... throw out the VL diff and put 3.45 gears on YOUR diff ?????




    why the hell would you put a vl diff in a vn just to have higher gears?? gears are just one part of the diff..
     
  4. 1991_Vn2nV

    1991_Vn2nV New Member

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    What he said ^^^^

    Even for the LSD you should have just taken the housing out and swapped that over as all the VL LSD diffs were 4 pinion, 28 spline diffs just like the VL.

    Im presuming its a VL Turbo diff to be 3.45 LSD, as the NA diffs were not LSD and the V8 LSD diffs were 3.08 ratio's.

    The VN Group A and SV5000 used the VL Turbo diff to fit the wider rims under the guards, however they werent sitting on ultralows.

    I blame the problem on your ultralows, either get superlows or put a VN diff back in your car.
     
  5. immortality

    immortality Can't live without smoky bacon! Staff Member

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    pretty sure spacers are ilegal here also, but if you put longer studs in the axels and do nice job i bet they wouldn't even pick it at WOF time. however, seeing as you gotta pull the axels out to do this i'd go with the others and fit 3.45 gears and LSD center to your VN housing and do it the right way and have no more hasles etc. whats the VL housing worth these days
     
  6. Cheap6

    Cheap6 New Member

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    They also used rims with a different offset, largely to widen the front track without major hardware changes. And a wagon diff. width, which is different to sedan in VK, VL.

    That might be one solution - use VQ or VP IRS rims, front and rear. (There's no chance of finding SV5000 or GrP A rims at a reasonable price.) Easier than swapping diff. centres.

    VL rear track, sedan: 1433mm

    + IRS offset of 34mm (2X17mm): 1467mm

    (VN rear track sedan: 1478mm)

    Enough to clear?
     
  7. 1991_Vn2nV

    1991_Vn2nV New Member

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    Are you sure they used wagon diffs? There were no VL Wagons with 4 pinion, 28 spline diffs and a 3.45 ratio. They used the VL turbo diffs from the VL range from everything I have seen, heard and read. And as far as I know, there were no wagon turbo's :p

    Also the VK had a shorter diff than the VL and the difference in track width is not purely the difference in diff size. I believe its ~21mm each side.


    There are a fair few VN/VP's that have fitted VL Turbo diffs anyway and are not having this trouble.
     
  8. VN Commy

    VN Commy New Member

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    Yea I thought it was fairly standard practice because it's much easier to just chuck the whole unit in than have to set all the backlash ect when changing the gears. I was also hoping that it would give me more clearance on the outside to upgrade to some wider rims.

    I can't afford to pay a diff shop to change the gears for me (I've been getting some pretty big quotes) so I'll give it a go myself. Everything I've read on this forum says stay away from doing it yourself but I'll give it a go once uni finishes. I'm reasonably confident pulling a diff to bits, I've tightened the LSD a couple of times but haven't played with setting up gears before.

    That's a good idea Cheap6, it might be worth getting some different offset rims since I was thinking about going wider some time.

    immortality I picked up the complete VL turbo LSD for $150 (just needed to be reshimmed) but I've had an offer for $600 for it. I just keep my eyes peelled. TradeMe's a ripoff for some parts such as LSDs and coil packs.

    Oh and I thought the VN Group A used the VL Turbo (sedan) diff too..
     
  9. Cheap6

    Cheap6 New Member

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    I won't argue it to death but my memory says VL wagon diff. for SV5000 at least. I was assuming that the GrP A was the same. The centres could be very easily the same as VL-T in the wagon housing (axle tubes). With sedan mounting brackets obviously.
     
  10. 1991_Vn2nV

    1991_Vn2nV New Member

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    The centres could be the same but in the wagon housing yeah, but it would need the VL Turbo/V8 axles also.

    Hmm and generally, knowing Holden, they would have just put a complete diff in without changing bits around. Look at VB to VP with suspension, VN to VZ with chassis etc.. Carry over parts up until the VE were a shocking habit of Holdens (Same with Ford...such as the Territory being modified off the AU wagon).
     
  11. greenfoam

    greenfoam New Member

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    The Group A ran mini tubs in the rear wheel arches to get away with it, also as mentioned earlier VP/Q IRS wheels might make it fit or swapping the center into the VN housing, I'd be cutting the wheel arches and welding in mini tubs and using it as a good excuse to fit 265s in there on 16x8 inch rims so it's all kinda legal !
     
  12. greenfoam

    greenfoam New Member

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    The XM/P Falcons are just a different shell on a Mustang. And the Valiant Charger is the Valiant Ute with a sex body on top :)
     
  13. Cheap6

    Cheap6 New Member

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    Front Tr Rear Tr
    VL Sed 1451 1433
    VL wag 1451 ?
    SV5000 1477 1468
    VN Sed 1451 1478
    VN GPA 1519 1502


    VN GPA-VL Sed 68 69

    SV5000-VL Sed 26 35

    (mm)

    This is from old Excel file I have where I was looking at various combinations of VL, VN, VP rear axle and wheel offsets. Assuming no changes in front end track width over VL/VN due to hardware, it would appear that the VN GPA does use the VL sedan axle housing with wheels with 34 mm (= 68/2) less positive offset than standard VN/VL wheels.

    The nominal diameters of the two wheel tyre combos are for VN GPA and standard 15" are:

    225/50/16 631.4mm
    205/65/15 647.5mm

    so no prob. with diameter.

    Edited bit: [Thinking about it, I think that the track widths for the VN GPA may be wrong. There is no way that would fit within standard guards. They were pulled from a contemporary magazine road test spec. list so may be the result of an error in transcription (the magazine's, not mine :) ). They would make more sense if the total increase in track width over the standard 43P rims due to the wheel offset was 34mm, as per VP/VQ IRS. I'll see if I can find some more data when I have access to it. The increase in inside clearance would be 17mm (extra rim offset)-10mm (1/2 increased tyre width)=7mm for a 225/50/16 over the 205/65/15 combo on a standard width VL rear axle with 43P wheels.]

    The VN SV5000 would appear to have a wider rear axle than the VN GPA but narrower than other VN's. I can't find VL wagon track spec's yet but if they are 1442mm (=1468-26) or so, that would indicate that was what was used in SV5000.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2006
  14. Cheap6

    Cheap6 New Member

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    So VL V8 wagon axles? I doubt the jig used when welding on the mounting brackets would need to be changed much if at all between wagon and sedan.
     
  15. Cheap6

    Cheap6 New Member

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    Weight; Track Front; Track Rear; Wheelbase; Source of spec.; Tyre size; Tyre Nominal Dia.;

    VN GPA; 1557; 1519; 1502; 2731; Motor Oct '90; 235/45/17; 643.3;
    VN GPA; 1477; 1466; -; Car Aust. Apr '91; 235/45/17; 643.3;
    VN GPA; 1477; 1468; -; Wheels Sep '90; 235/45/17; 643.3;
    VN SV5000; 1436; 1477; 1468; 2731; Wheels Jun '90; 225/50/16; 631.4;
    VN SV5000; -; 1477; 1468; -; Wheels Jan '90; 225/50/16; 631.4;

    Please forgive the formatting. I dug around and the data suggests that both VN GPA and SV5000 have the same front and rear tracks: F=1477 and R=1468. Assuming that the front suspension is unchanged, 1477-1451=26mm. For the rear: 1468-26mm=1442. I reckon that's a wagon diff. :).

    I also found prices quoted for VL turbo wagons, SL and Berlina. That was news to me too.

    (I did find VK wagon rear track: 1440mm but that is a different type of diff.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2006
  16. defa

    defa New Member

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    series 2 vk's would be the same as vl's diff's wouldn't they. so i was told. a mate of mine had a series two vk and it had a borgwarner diff in it..
     
  17. 1991_Vn2nV

    1991_Vn2nV New Member

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    Yes but smaller.
     
  18. bradj

    bradj New Member

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    BW78's are all the same.
    How can they be smaller?
    There are a couple of good technical threads on diffs on here from genuinely qualified people, look them up or call Diffs R Us for the right answers.
     
  19. _R_J_K_

    _R_J_K_ Well-Known Member

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    This thread is almost three years old.
     
  20. immortality

    immortality Can't live without smoky bacon! Staff Member

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    nice thread dig :bang: and there are differnces in width between VK/VL and VN diffs :thumbsup:
     

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