VH SS

[vc commodore]

Rebirthing is the act of taking a damaged vehicle‘s ID and moving the identity plates over to a stolen vehicle to mask its theft... It was a big big problem run by organised crime...

If one crashes their own legally registered vehicle and legally buys another lesser example tha5 is not on tne written off vehicle register, there would be little need to swap compliance plates as swapping components would get them back on the road. But if that crashed vehicle was a special edition or something similar, then we are in a much rarer product misrepresentation situation rather than a stolen vehicle situation. So, considering the quality of our law makers, I doubt the law even considered this second situation when it was being formulated. I’d say we are lucky that it has captured this rather rarer misrepresentation activity (which only impacts the anal retentive car enthusiast amongst us) For the honest car restorer, who likes to preserve the old, it is an obstructionist set or rules with no legitimate way around them (it seems). Hense these OS based plate makers meeting aussies needs

I guess the issue is what type of society one wants to live in. One where laws are so ridged that they capture the bulk of miscreants while also impedes legitimate needs OR one where you’ll capture the majority of miscreants but also allow legitimate edge cases?

The law will always be broken by some people. Such will never change regardless of what laws or punishments are in place. Heck in some jurisdictions, even where the death penalty is at play, some people still dabble with selling illicit drugs. But do we really want a Judge Dredd bureaucracy?

If your memory goes back far enough, you'd remember re-birthing of desirable cars used to be common place and as a result of this practice, all the ADR requirements etc etc were introduced requirements ....I am talking way back in the late 80's early 90's.....It made headlines across the country, when these car theft rings were busted...

So if you think about it, when did the car manufacturers start introducing anti theft devices into cars and changing up of VIN tags and engine numbers with the way they look?

The written off register has only been nationwide for a few years...Can't remember the exact number, however it is young compared to the introduction of anti theft devices being standard....And these anti theft devices have become more complex over time....It was also introduced to help with the re-birthing that was occurring....They were re-birthing cars in one state and on selling them in another state...

The crashing of ones own vehicle and not claiming it on insurance, yet buying a lesser value vehicle and swapping necessary tags over also was common place....However, with the introduction of these more complex compliance plates, it does make it extremely difficult for this to occur...If we look at the era commodore in this thread, buying the vin plates advertised, makes it alot easier to re-birth the car, be it a legitament car or one illegally aquired....Hence why I see them as illegal to own and why I disagree with people being able to buy them, even though the OP has a legitmate reason to have them

 

[VS 5.0]

If one crashes their own legally registered vehicle and legally buys another lesser example tha5 is not on tne written off vehicle register, there would be little need to swap compliance plates as swapping components would get them back on the road. But if that crashed vehicle was a special edition or something similar, then we are in a much rarer product misrepresentation situation rather than a stolen vehicle situation. So, considering the quality of our law makers, I doubt the law even considered this second situation when it was being formulated. I’d say we are lucky that it has captured this rather rarer misrepresentation activity (which only impacts the anal retentive car enthusiast amongst us) For the honest car restorer, who likes to preserve the old, it is an obstructionist set or rules with no legitimate way around them (it seems). Hense these OS based plate makers meeting aussies needs

People that have laid out huge sums for plated but not genuine XU1, SLR, GT HO etc cars would like a chat.

 

[Skylarking]

People that have laid out huge sums for plated but not genuine XU1, SLR, GT HO etc cars would like a chat.

I didn’t sell them the car so if they’ve been dudded, their chat should be with the seller not with me

My position doesn’t mean I want plates remanufactured with no checks and balances. There are ways to allow such and still maintain the integrity of the current system. It’s not a mutually exclusive position... we can achieve both

As is, spending huge amounts to restore a genuine XU1, for example, and have the corroded original complience and build plate still attached and looking ratty just upsets my OCD And having such ratty plates still doesn’t prove originality as you’ve so eloquently highlighted

To prove originality, really you need documented provenance Best if it’s a 44 yo old barn find that just needs a good detailing (but how rare is that)

In a world where some are talking of putting a man on mars, surely setting up a secure method to remanufactured and legally attached replacement plates to well restored vehicles would and should be doable in this modern world we live in. And all can be done without a loss of the current system integrity

 

[VS 5.0]

Agree.

Best if it’s a 44 yo old barn find that just needs a good detailing (but how rare is that)

Less and less rare with every day that passes apparently.

 

[vc commodore]

I didn’t sell them the car so if they’ve been dudded, their chat should be with the seller not with me

My position doesn’t mean I want plates remanufactured with no checks and balances. There are ways to allow such and still maintain the integrity of the current system. It’s not a mutually exclusive position... we can achieve both

As is, spending huge amounts to restore a genuine XU1, for example, and have the corroded original complience and build plate still attached and looking ratty just upsets my OCD And having such ratty plates still doesn’t prove originality as you’ve so eloquently highlighted

To prove originality, really you need documented provenance Best if it’s a 44 yo old barn find that just needs a good detailing (but how rare is that)

In a world where some are talking of putting a man on mars, surely setting up a secure method to remanufactured and legally attached replacement plates to well restored vehicles would and should be doable in this modern world we live in. And all can be done without a loss of the current system integrity

So where the issue lies is, who and how should these replacement compliance plates be sold?

Selling them through an open market place like ebay, only helps the dishonest person continue on their merry way, re-birthing any car they wish, that has these types of plates....This is part of my problem....

 

[Skylarking]

@vc commodore, ISO VINs were required on new cars sold in Australia from 1989 so they’ve been around for more than 30 years. NEVDIS was being constructed in the 90’s and went live in 98 so it’s also been around for quite a while. I‘m sure you can look up the dates of the various ADRs related to vehicle security but that won’t change the situation.

If you remember way back when vehicle rebirths was a big thing and organised crime was involved, you’d also remember the NSW and VIC police corruption which was rife back then. Corruption also extended to the rego authorities. The heaven lifting to reduce vehicle rebirthing was in part the clean up of state police and registration authorities...

Allowing a process for someone to apply for new remanufactured identity and compliance plates while requiring the vehicle identification and ownership verified before approval will not suddenly allow the bad old days of criminal gangs rebirthing vehicles...

 

[Skylarking]

Agree.

Less and less rare with every day that passes apparently.

not in my life... but for some it happens

 

[Skylarking]

So where the issue lies is, who and how should these replacement compliance plates be sold?

Selling them through an open market place like ebay, only helps the dishonest person continue on their merry way, re-birthing any car they wish, that has these types of plates....This is part of my problem....

You seemed to miss the point where I was saying there should be a process where ownership, vehicle identity and other details are confirmed before the authorities approve plates to be remade and attached by an authorised agent...

(it should be similar to the process I had to go through when i privately imported a vehicle and was put through the ringer to fit a government supplied identity plate with federal issued VIN... an arduous but legit process... similar can be done to help vehicle restorers have remanufactured old plates made by authorised company, ideally the original manufacturer if possible)...

As is, eBay sellers only exist because there is no legal method available for people so they fill the gap. It’s not the mod I’d have involved in an official sanctioned process...

 

[vc commodore]

@vc commodore, ISO VINs were required on new cars sold in Australia from 1989 so they’ve been around for more than 30 years. NEVDIS was being constructed in the 90’s and went live in 98 so it’s also been around for quite a while. I‘m sure you can look up the dates of the various ADRs related to vehicle security but that won’t change the situation.

If you remember way back when vehicle rebirths was a big thing and organised crime was involved, you’d also remember the NSW and VIC police corruption which was rife back then. Corruption also extended to the rego authorities. The heaven lifting to reduce vehicle rebirthing was in part the clean up of state police and registration authorities...

Allowing a process for someone to apply for new remanufactured identity and compliance plates while requiring the vehicle identification and ownership verified before approval will not suddenly allow the bad old days of criminal gangs rebirthing vehicles...

Re-birthing was rife in the 80's and 90's...So before NEVDIS was in place.....

Re-birthing was occurring all over Australia....Not just those 2 states you have referred to.

Part of the re-birthing process was changing VIN numbers.....These stamps can be legally obtained (Not that I agree on them being available too)......

Yes organised crime was heavily involved, but doesn't alter that it was occurring before security systems started to become factory fitted items in cars, after re-birthing became exposed through the media...The media exposing it influenced the fitament of these systems....

It wasn't just organised crime involved.....There were backyarders getting a slice of the pie.....More with the write off cars, or wrecks being re born in better condition

I can tell you, national interlinked data bases for VIN numbers has only been around for about 15 years...S.A was one of the last states to join in.....The practice was, written off cars from interstate were dumped on S.A's doorstep and re-registered.....

I have no doubt when VIN's became compulsary, but we are talking about VIN plates being available for a car built in 1983/ 1984....A good 15 to 16 years before it became compulsary, according to what you have written.

Having these plates available these days, still opens it up for re-birthing of old classic vehicles....These cars are still being stolen (just check out facebook if you have it)....Sometimes it even hits the news where a classic car has been stolen.....

When it comes to newer vehicles, well that's a different story...They are generally stolen by breaking into ones home and stealing the keys...They are taken for a joyride and dumped and torched.....Some are stolen and bits sold off on the black market...

 

[vc commodore]

You seemed to miss the point where I was saying there should be a process where ownership, vehicle identity and other details are confirmed before the authorities approve plates to be remade and attached by an authorised agent...

(it should be similar to the process I had to go through when i privately imported a vehicle and was put through the ringer to fit a government supplied identity plate with federal issued VIN... an arduous but legit process... similar can be done to help vehicle restorers have remanufactured old plates made by authorised company, ideally the original manufacturer if possible)...

As is, eBay sellers only exist because there is no legal method available for people so they fill the gap. It’s not the mod I’d have involved in an official sanctioned process...

The discussion started because I mentioned that these plates were being sold through ebay and I saw it as a way shady people could use them for illegal purposes....

You have then gone on saying things about gov'ts junking old cars, and ADR requirements etc etc....Now onto being available through authorised companies.

Yeah, having them available through proper channels, rather than an open market place like ebay would be more suitable...Helps track where they have gone and discourage shonky practices occurring

ADR's and junking old cars have bugger all to do with it