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wheel balancing and road force test

Discussion in 'VF Holden Commodore (2013 - 2017)' started by KING46Calais V, Mar 1, 2019.

  1. KING46Calais V

    KING46Calais V Active Member

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    Hi all,

    I've had a vibration in my car since i got it.

    Initially I put it down to bad balancing and lived with it. I had the last tyre place try 3 times to get the vibration out.

    Today I tried another tyre place and they did the regular balancing and a road force balance as well. Road force is where they apply load to the tyre and spin it to determine the best place on the rim for the tyre.

    The test found out that two tyres which are on the front surprise, surprise, were out so much that they could not get a proper balance hence the vibration. The tyre guy told me they have had that before and they have had sent tyres back (goodyear/dunlop) because they were so far out.

    He suggested i try for a warranty claim either thru brigestone or Holden as the tyres are not up to scratch. First thing I thought was yeah sure, they'll claim I flat spotted them, burnouts under inflated or any other excuse.

    The tyre guy told me that is not the case as the casing or walls of the tyre have the fault during manufacture and have either too much or too little rubber thickness which is causing the weight discrepancy.

    Anyway, im going to call bridgestone first to see what they deem acceptable in regard to weight difference and go from there.

    Has anyone else heard or had experience with this or is the tyre guy just relieving himself in my pocket?

    out of interest my tyre results are
    LHF 11.5kg
    RHF 10.5kg
    LHR 6.5kg
    RHR 4.0kg

    fronts are now on the rear which has taken the vibration out dramatically.
     
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  2. kleanphil

    kleanphil Active Member

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    have you considered that the one of the rims are buckled
     
  3. KING46Calais V

    KING46Calais V Active Member

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    Yes rims checked
    All good.
    I thought that as well.
     
  4. VS 5.0

    VS 5.0 Well-Known Member

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    Ask old mate to provide you with his expert opinion in writing and take that to Holden to support your warranty claim.
     
  5. KING46Calais V

    KING46Calais V Active Member

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    Yep I have that as well
    He even offered to speak with them direct
    Just think if I get Bridgestone on side, Holden might be a bit more accommodating. Or, I might be able to save the grief of dealing with Holden all together
     
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  6. Sir Les

    Sir Les Active Member

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    I'm sorry, I don't understand what these measurements (weights) are. Can you enlighten me? Thanks.
     
  7. KING46Calais V

    KING46Calais V Active Member

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    It's how much each tyre is out.
    As tyres are not a uniform thickness in tread and the wall, when they are spinning, the different weight causes them to vibrate. This is why they add weights to compensate

    A road force test loads the tyre up with a roller pushing against the tyre similar to what it would experience on the road. It is then able to measure the sidewall flex and rebound. The tyre tech can then move the heaviest part of the tyre to the lightest part of the rim then fine tune with stick on weights. The kg rating for each tyre reflects the difference within each tyre. 4 to 6 kg they can sort out. When it's around 10kg like my rears, it's too much to try and compensate for and they won't be able to get the wobble out. So I will be stuck with a shaky steering wheel when ever they are rotated to the front
     
  8. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    Didn’t know that tyre places had such equipment available or maybe I just didn’t notice the rear roller on the otherwise normal looking balance machine. Now I know to have such things checked if I have some vibration, so thanks for the heads up.

    In any case it seems like of lack of quality control at the tyre manufacturer that allowed such a suspect tyre out the door but the vehicle manufacturer has the legal liability as they put in on the car when the built it.

    As such, I’d go to Holden to get this issue sorted. I’d expect two new tyres, even if only one tyre was buggered, so I get balanced handling across a specific axle. I wouldn’t entertain discounts due to used tread depth resulting in me paying some portion of new tyre costs. Further, I’d expect to be reimbursed for any out of pocket balance or alignment fees I’ve paid trying to fix Holden’s stuff up.

    I wouldn’t bother with going to the tyre manufacturer as I didn’t buy tyres from them, Holden can do that to recoupe the cost of tyres and balance/alignment costs they reimbursed to their customer.

    As for those weights, mustn’t have slept well as I don’t understand the explanation. I can understand balance weights measured in grams being placed on a rim to sort out the small weight variations of a tyre. But to talk of kilogram weight differences between a good and bad tyre just seems too much as our tyres would each weigh in the 10 odd kilogram range.

    What I gather from those numbers is that they are a measure of road force variance that the roller detects when placing 500 odd kilograms of force on the rotating tyre, hence the reading in kilogram. A perfect (unattainable) tyre would have zero kilograms road force difference but anything under 8 pounds (3.6kgs) is within spec according to this video



    ps: on the third reading of your post I now understand what you stated so I’ve obviously woken up from my morning slumber :p
     
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  9. KING46Calais V

    KING46Calais V Active Member

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    Yes sky, you got it re tyre weights.

    I imagine I will have to go thru Holden, but just want to get some info from Bridgestone first. If I can get them acknowledging that it's an issue, will probably save me a ton of time at the service counter.

    While I'd like to get reimbursed for the outlay so far, I don't like my chances. I'd be happy with 2 new tyres at no cost to me. I won't be keen on negotiating a payment or discount re wear/use as I've had a sub standard tyre since the beginning.
    See how I go
    I'm not looking forward to it.
     
  10. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    ^ when you talk to Bridgestone, I’d start with asking for the maximum road force variance for your specific tyre and then asking what process should be followed when tyres are outside the spec they gave you.

    But whatever you do, don’t start with the premise that having just your tyres replaced is ok. Ask for and push for the lot, then you can decide to compromise if there is strong resistance from Holden(there shouldn’t be).

    Sadly dealers are just a necessary evil but they are not the decision makers. In this case as you have reports, etc, you could go directly to HCC and make a claim directly to Holden (costs + tyres).

    Treat it as a bit of a game of chess... you like chess don’t you :p

    Oh, and if Holden wonder why it took so long, well dealers and tyre places aren’t all at the same skill level and it took as long as it did just to find someone who could help sort out the issue.
     
  11. vc commodore

    vc commodore Well-Known Member

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    Holden only bought the tyres....The claim will be with Bridgestone, as they are the manufacturer....Do you go to Bridgestone to have your new Holden serviced to keep the manufacturers warranty?

    Considering this place you went to are claiming they will back up the results, get them to call in the Bridgestone representative with you present and have them help you with your grievance and hopefully the representative will help out with the problem
     
  12. vc commodore

    vc commodore Well-Known Member

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    The claim is through Bridgestone as they are the manufacturer of the product.
     
  13. VS 5.0

    VS 5.0 Well-Known Member

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    One only has to claim through the seller, in this instance Holden.

    It is actually illegal for a seller to refer a purchaser to the manufacturer rather than dealing with it themselves.
     
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  14. vc commodore

    vc commodore Well-Known Member

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    This is a case where a representative of Bridgestone will have to look at the tyre/s and make a determination whether it is a manufacturing fault or not.....

    The Op could go to Holden, then Holden will have to call in a Bridgestone representative to look at the offending tyre/s....To make a determination, the car would have to be left at the dealership and the representative would have to see the offending tyre/s spun on the balancer and make a call as to whether it is a problem.....

    Seeing as though an independant place has made their assessment, the store should arrange with the OP to have the rep present with him to make the call.....It would be then upto the manufacturer to determine whether it is a manufacturing fault or not and act accordingly.....

    Holden didn't manufacture the tyres, so they aren't directly responsible for the problem.....And before you go any further, I have had experience with other tyre manufacturing issues, with another brand of tyre on another brand of car.....What I have outlined is exactly the procedure that was followed to resolve the issue.
     
  15. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    ^
    @vc commodore , as mentioned, it is illegal for a seller to refer a purchaser to the manufacturer for a remedy. Seller is 100% responsible in law for what they sell.

    In the same token, it would also be illegal for a seller to expect the customer to wait for the manufacturer’s supplier’s representative to make an assessment before any remedy is given. It may make back office supplier claims simpler for the manufacturer but this approach is simply skirting the sellers responsibility and again passing it further down the chain to the manufacturers parts supplier (in this case Bridgestone). I’d expect that such behaviour would be very much against the intent of the undertaking that Holden has made to ACCC not to be duschbags.

    And if you bought the tyres post vehicle purchase, from your local tyre retailer, you’d still make any statutory warranty claim to the seller, your local tyre retailer. Whether the tyre retailer will be reimbursed by their tyre supplier for resolving the fault is 100% irrelevant to you, the buyer, in receiving a remedy from the seller.

    It’s just ludicrous to me that people don’t want to understand the law and accept being fobbed off to a 3rd party simply to make a businesses back office processes simpler.
     
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  16. vc commodore

    vc commodore Well-Known Member

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    Back in 2003, I was working for a Dunlop dealership..There was an issue with the 3000A, as fitted as OEM to XR series Falcons, whereby the sidewalls were cracking, which can lead to premature failure....This was after a number of tyres were detected by other tyre companies nationwide and had the reps assess the issue being a manufacturing defect, therefore a nation wide recall issued through all tyre stores

    Back then, us tyre fitters would remove the offending tyres and replace them, holding onto them for a rep to assess and reimburse the dealership for the tyres.

    In this instance, the issue is far from life threatening, unlike the issue I outlined.....The tyre/s are simply unbalanced. The best course of action is to have the independant tyre store arrange with the OP to meet up with the Bridgestone representative and have the tyre/s assessed with the Op present.....

    If you were to take it to a Holden dealership, you'll have upto 5 seperate companies involved.....The OP, the Holden dealership rep, a Bridgestone rep and the independant tyre store that has come up with the conclusion and possibly another independant tyre store, doing the test, with the Bridgestone rep present. Makes for one big headache, where you'd have a crap load of differing opinions, with the Bridgestone rep making the final call. NOT THE HOLDEN REP

    Finally, being in the industry for years, I have seen my fair share of tyre issues, involving batches of tyres fitted....My outlined course of action is the best course....If you want a crap load of headaches and stuff ass arounds, go by the other methods...

    One last thing....If I was to buy a car from you, that had tyres on them, with guaranteed mileage and I fail to get that mileage, would you reimburse me for the cost of those replacement tyres? Judging by your response, you would legally have to because you have sold me a car with this guarantee....
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
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  17. KING46Calais V

    KING46Calais V Active Member

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    I am really hoping to resolve it this way. To bypass exactly what you say. I know golden will be a PITA to deal with. Hopefully Bridgestone will stand by their product and show some goodwill and customer service and stand by their product and sort the issue out without sending me back to Holden
    The tyre centre I dealt with does not stock Bridgestone as they are a good year service centre. They do know quite well the local Bridgestone service centre so they have no problem talking to them and have a good professional relationship so I hope that helps.

    I will be calling Bridgestone tomorrow and first asking what is acceptable before giving them my situation. Then I'll see where we go from there.
    I'll keep you all posted
    Stay tuned.

    If Bridgestone don t agree that there is a problem and they are within acceptable limits, I don't think I'd have a chance with Holden which is why I want to get Bridgestone on side.
     
  18. KING46Calais V

    KING46Calais V Active Member

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    I know what your saying and agree but I'm only wanting the try and bypass Holden to save me the running around and Holden dragging their feet. The intention of going to Bridgestone first, is to get them to acknowledge a problem, which is exactly what Holden will do. If I do the running around for Holden first, it may save me time and hassle in the long run. Bridgestone may very well refer me back to Holden to have the problem rectified but by that time I'd have a contact name at Bridgestone that could get onto Holden from their end while I hit them up.from this end. If Holden know they are not going to be out of pocket, I'm sure they will be more likely to sort the problem quicker.

    Holden will do what Bridgestone say. If Bridgestone say they are fine, it doesn't matter what my independent says, I doubt they will replace my tyres. I just hoping Bridgestone will listen to someone that has a lot my experience with tyres than me and give me 2 replacements. They only have 15k on them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  19. KING46Calais V

    KING46Calais V Active Member

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    Hey VC
    I'm thinking the same as you on this. It will ultimately be up to Bridgestone.

    In regard to your previous fitting days, was there any technology like roadforce tests?
    Is it common for there to be faults in the manufacture and thickness of tyre wall and carcass that would cause excessive vibration.
    I have posted the weight difference of my tyres about, do they seem within limits?
     
  20. KING46Calais V

    KING46Calais V Active Member

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    Spoke to Bridgestone today

    They told me for my model of tyre and size their acceptable limit is 16kg So my tiyres are within spec. They did offer to test my wheels and tyres and ship them from Coffs Harbour To Sydney for free. Turn around though is a couple of weeks.

    Bridgestone said there shouldn't be a noticeable vibration at 10. and 11.5 so they think the machine i had my tyres tested on could be out. If it is, and they are over 16kg they will replace the tyres. If they aren't, they will send them back and I wont be given replacements.

    I reckon i can see it now, the tyres will be within spec and I will have to live with it. Holden wont want to know either if Bridgestone have fobbed me.

    I dont know if i should waste my time as i can pretty much guarantee they will say they are fine

    When i spoke to the rep where i had mine tested, he said it was a load of poo, they don't fit anything that is more than 9kg out. But that might just be them or Goodyears policy.

    They were quite happy to deal with me and i had no problem bypassing Holden. They told me Holden would only just refer it back to Bridgestone anyway. They said I dont need to go through Holden as they would fix the problem themselves if there was one.

    still considering my options for now
     

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