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Why can't Holden smash its competitors?

Puggle

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With the impending showroom release of the awesomely improved and overdue VE, I am left wondering this:

Why can't a car maker (such as Holden) obliterate its competition by offering significanlty higher specs? Let me give an example...

Think back
The BA has just been released, and the country goes crazy (for good reason). Suddenly the SS commodore has a worthy competitor (XR8/XR6T) from Ford that actually has the right stuff to compete (except ofcourse straight line performance in the XR8 lol).

Holden's next model up (HSV's Clubsport Series2) was making 285kw right? And soon to go to 297LS2. SS is 245kw (Series2). So there's a big enough gap for Holden to pump the SS to say 260kw or more (proved in the VYClubsport) and still not steal the Clubbie's market. The overall effect would be an expected huge performance edge over the XR6T/XR8, effectively stealing SOME if not MANY performance oriented buyers from Ford.

I mean imagine if the VE SS was not 270kw but say 300kw (ignore HSV market for now). Would Ford then have ANY hope of selling a BFXR8 to a performance enthusiast? No way!

The facts are:
Holden has had this opportunity in the past (such as in the VYII) without screwing up their market spread.
Holden didn't and doesn't do it.:bang:
This applies to many other makers as well of course.


The reason I ask is because I vaguely remember reading in Motor that car makers detune some new engines/cars because they would overshadow their competition way too much.

I say car makers get your balls out and shoot for the moon. Stuff fair play, go hard and make a FAR SUPERIOR performance car than your competition.

Anyone who can please shed some light or reeducate me on this... :thumbsup:
 

andyman

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Puggle said:
The reason I ask is because I vaguely remember reading in Motor that car makers detune some new engines/cars because they would overshadow their competition way too much.
they'd detune the engines so they dont offer the best the engine can do in 1 hit as they would use the engine over multiple series
eg, vz alloytec 172kw, ve alloytec 180kw, ve11 alloytec 185kw, ve111 alloytec 190kw, vf alloytec 200kw, vf11 alloytec 210kw, vf111 alloytec 220kw.

at the end of the vf111 the maximum output has been reached therefore a new engine will be released sort of thing

^^^all the above an example
 

andyman

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Puggle said:
imagine if the VE SS was not 270kw but say 300kw (ignore HSV market for now). Would Ford then have ANY hope of selling a BFXR8 to a performance enthusiast? No way!
yes they would, yes people would turn away from an xr8 but there would be still die hard fans that would rather die than drive a holden so to speak
 

andrewmac

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I get what your saying but the next question would have to be where does it end ?
What would ford do to counter this? My guess up the power or get a new engine to match or surpass the holden.
If this was the practice that was applied then the standard v8s would be rediculosly overpowered and you would probably need to have a petrol station visit everytime yu went for a drive.
 

andyman

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ford isnt going to catch up on the v8 anyway, at least for the next year. the problem is there boss v8 has reached its peak and ford hasn't got any other engines to replace it as ford america etc engines are too big to fit under the bonnet of the bf and ford has money tied up in other things at the moment.....or something like that.

but if holden wanted to make a way better deal than ford/toyota etc and vice versa at the present time we would be driving around in 400kw 3.5litre v6 with dvd players, every safety feature ever made etc..... the system would not work
 

vztrt

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Does anyone remeber the supercar days? GTHO and E49 where the government jumped up and down and wouldn't allow these beasts to continue to be produced. Ford could easily source a GT40 motor out of the US and bump up the power as could Holden.

It's funny that FPV are selling more cars than HSV and while the F6 is a much quicker car than the GT the V8's at FPV outsell the I6T's.

You need to remember that only a small percentage of people buy a car for performance. People look at fuel economy, build quality, reliability and looks.
 
L

LeBoofer

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vztrt said:
You need to remember that only a small percentage of people buy a car for performance. People look at fuel economy, build quality, reliability and looks.
Thats a true point. The SS commodore is the hero car of the VE range. The SS has the wow factor, however the bread and butter (ie Omega) VE is the car which will appeal to the great general public. Sure performance is an aspect for topping to competition, but Holden should be, and at this stage appears to 'smash' (maybe not) the rivals with a better car, with all the features that vztrt referred to.

It wont be long before Ford/Toyota 'fight back' and bring the game back to Holden. But doesnt all this competition force Holden to create a better car? I think so - see VE :)
 

Reaper

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Puggle said:
With the impending showroom release of the awesomely improved and overdue VE, I am left wondering this:

Why can't a car maker (such as Holden) obliterate its competition by offering significanlty higher specs? Let me give an example...

Think back
The BA has just been released, and the country goes crazy (for good reason). Suddenly the SS commodore has a worthy competitor (XR8/XR6T) from Ford that actually has the right stuff to compete (except ofcourse straight line performance in the XR8 lol).

Holden's next model up (HSV's Clubsport Series2) was making 285kw right? And soon to go to 297LS2. SS is 245kw (Series2). So there's a big enough gap for Holden to pump the SS to say 260kw or more (proved in the VYClubsport) and still not steal the Clubbie's market. The overall effect would be an expected huge performance edge over the XR6T/XR8, effectively stealing SOME if not MANY performance oriented buyers from Ford.

I mean imagine if the VE SS was not 270kw but say 300kw (ignore HSV market for now). Would Ford then have ANY hope of selling a BFXR8 to a performance enthusiast? No way!

The facts are:
Holden has had this opportunity in the past (such as in the VYII) without screwing up their market spread.
Holden didn't and doesn't do it.:bang:
This applies to many other makers as well of course.


The reason I ask is because I vaguely remember reading in Motor that car makers detune some new engines/cars because they would overshadow their competition way too much.

I say car makers get your balls out and shoot for the moon. Stuff fair play, go hard and make a FAR SUPERIOR performance car than your competition.

Anyone who can please shed some light or reeducate me on this... :thumbsup:
1. Building cars is not the most profitable business in the world right now. To overburden the cars with extra equipment would be un-profitable over the longer term.
2. Do you think any competitor will just sit there and watch their business go broke without making a real effort to stop the slide?? All that happens is both manufacturers make un profitable cars and eventually go broke.
3. Should only 1 manufacturer survive. that is the *worst* thing that could happen because over time cars engineering & design departments get cut back to save money and equipment gets deleted from cars because there is no competition (what else are you going to buy???)

Reaper
 

haloeight

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welcome to the most basic principle of consumption/capitalism

to consume a person needs a compelling reason to consume...i.e. improvements over time

if there is no compelling reason to consume then the market becomes stagnant and people cease buying new things

to stay in business in the current economic setup you need to get people consuming new items of your product, or you go broke

say car development and improvements cased to be made after the VB commo, would you buy a new one today that is exactly the same if you had already done that in the 80's? no, because you would want to upgrade, not stay the same

take for example DVD players, when they were new and improvements were still being made people were rushing to buy the things to get the improvements, now they are a "mature" product and they arent going to get a lot better, so people arent consuming them anymore, so the price falls to a ridiculously low price because the demand is now low, and the bulk of purchases now would be replacements for dead units.

If holden played all their cards in one hit sure they would win for 1-2 years, but at the end of that they would be broke when the consumers would demand more and more for the same amount of money, and the technology hadnt advanced in pace with that. So like most industries they use a "treat em mean, keep em keen", tactic to keep people consuming their cars.

When the import tariffs on imported cars are removed completely holden and ford AU will probably go broke, as every asian country under the sun that can produce cars at 1/3 the cost that we can (due to a lack of trade unions and sweatshops seen as an acceptable practice), will flood the market with crap cars and all the cheaparses (95% of the population) will flock to them, this is also a reason why holden is investing in korea, because people cant see the big picture beyond wanting to save a buck on something.

The average consumer perception of holdens cars is that they are a rip-off and they can buy an excel 20k cheaper that will do the same job and be more fuel efficient, they dont look deeper in that by buying an australian car, they are investing in a future for their children, as when every australian manufacturing company goes broke, or is moved to china there will be a signifigantly smaller job market in AU for their kids. By buying cheap junk you are cheating your children of a future.
 

fu2

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haloeight said:
welcome to the most basic principle of consumption/capitalism

to consume a person needs a compelling reason to consume...i.e. improvements over time

if there is no compelling reason to consume then the market becomes stagnant and people cease buying new things

to stay in business in the current economic setup you need to get people consuming new items of your product, or you go broke

say car development and improvements cased to be made after the VB commo, would you buy a new one today that is exactly the same if you had already done that in the 80's? no, because you would want to upgrade, not stay the same

take for example DVD players, when they were new and improvements were still being made people were rushing to buy the things to get the improvements, now they are a "mature" product and they arent going to get a lot better, so people arent consuming them anymore, so the price falls to a ridiculously low price because the demand is now low, and the bulk of purchases now would be replacements for dead units.

If holden played all their cards in one hit sure they would win for 1-2 years, but at the end of that they would be broke when the consumers would demand more and more for the same amount of money, and the technology hadnt advanced in pace with that. So like most industries they use a "treat em mean, keep em keen", tactic to keep people consuming their cars.

When the import tariffs on imported cars are removed completely holden and ford AU will probably go broke, as every asian country under the sun that can produce cars at 1/3 the cost that we can (due to a lack of trade unions and sweatshops seen as an acceptable practice), will flood the market with crap cars and all the cheaparses (95% of the population) will flock to them, this is also a reason why holden is investing in korea, because people cant see the big picture beyond wanting to save a buck on something.

The average consumer perception of holdens cars is that they are a rip-off and they can buy an excel 20k cheaper that will do the same job and be more fuel efficient, they dont look deeper in that by buying an australian car, they are investing in a future for their children, as when every australian manufacturing company goes broke, or is moved to china there will be a signifigantly smaller job market in AU for their kids. By buying cheap junk you are cheating your children of a future.

well said mate
 
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