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Why can't Holden smash its competitors?

Discussion in 'VE Holden Commodore (2006 - 2013)' started by Puggle, Jul 22, 2006.

  1. Puggle

    Puggle New Member

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    With the impending showroom release of the awesomely improved and overdue VE, I am left wondering this:

    Why can't a car maker (such as Holden) obliterate its competition by offering significanlty higher specs? Let me give an example...

    Think back
    The BA has just been released, and the country goes crazy (for good reason). Suddenly the SS commodore has a worthy competitor (XR8/XR6T) from Ford that actually has the right stuff to compete (except ofcourse straight line performance in the XR8 lol).

    Holden's next model up (HSV's Clubsport Series2) was making 285kw right? And soon to go to 297LS2. SS is 245kw (Series2). So there's a big enough gap for Holden to pump the SS to say 260kw or more (proved in the VYClubsport) and still not steal the Clubbie's market. The overall effect would be an expected huge performance edge over the XR6T/XR8, effectively stealing SOME if not MANY performance oriented buyers from Ford.

    I mean imagine if the VE SS was not 270kw but say 300kw (ignore HSV market for now). Would Ford then have ANY hope of selling a BFXR8 to a performance enthusiast? No way!

    The facts are:
    Holden has had this opportunity in the past (such as in the VYII) without screwing up their market spread.
    Holden didn't and doesn't do it.:bang:
    This applies to many other makers as well of course.


    The reason I ask is because I vaguely remember reading in Motor that car makers detune some new engines/cars because they would overshadow their competition way too much.

    I say car makers get your balls out and shoot for the moon. Stuff fair play, go hard and make a FAR SUPERIOR performance car than your competition.

    Anyone who can please shed some light or reeducate me on this... :thumbsup:
     
  2. andyman

    andyman The Only 6sp VZ Wagon

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    they'd detune the engines so they dont offer the best the engine can do in 1 hit as they would use the engine over multiple series
    eg, vz alloytec 172kw, ve alloytec 180kw, ve11 alloytec 185kw, ve111 alloytec 190kw, vf alloytec 200kw, vf11 alloytec 210kw, vf111 alloytec 220kw.

    at the end of the vf111 the maximum output has been reached therefore a new engine will be released sort of thing

    ^^^all the above an example
     
  3. andyman

    andyman The Only 6sp VZ Wagon

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    yes they would, yes people would turn away from an xr8 but there would be still die hard fans that would rather die than drive a holden so to speak
     
  4. andrewmac

    andrewmac Member

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    I get what your saying but the next question would have to be where does it end ?
    What would ford do to counter this? My guess up the power or get a new engine to match or surpass the holden.
    If this was the practice that was applied then the standard v8s would be rediculosly overpowered and you would probably need to have a petrol station visit everytime yu went for a drive.
     
  5. andyman

    andyman The Only 6sp VZ Wagon

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    ford isnt going to catch up on the v8 anyway, at least for the next year. the problem is there boss v8 has reached its peak and ford hasn't got any other engines to replace it as ford america etc engines are too big to fit under the bonnet of the bf and ford has money tied up in other things at the moment.....or something like that.

    but if holden wanted to make a way better deal than ford/toyota etc and vice versa at the present time we would be driving around in 400kw 3.5litre v6 with dvd players, every safety feature ever made etc..... the system would not work
     
  6. vztrt

    vztrt New Member

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    Does anyone remeber the supercar days? GTHO and E49 where the government jumped up and down and wouldn't allow these beasts to continue to be produced. Ford could easily source a GT40 motor out of the US and bump up the power as could Holden.

    It's funny that FPV are selling more cars than HSV and while the F6 is a much quicker car than the GT the V8's at FPV outsell the I6T's.

    You need to remember that only a small percentage of people buy a car for performance. People look at fuel economy, build quality, reliability and looks.
     
  7. LeBoofer

    LeBoofer Guest

    Thats a true point. The SS commodore is the hero car of the VE range. The SS has the wow factor, however the bread and butter (ie Omega) VE is the car which will appeal to the great general public. Sure performance is an aspect for topping to competition, but Holden should be, and at this stage appears to 'smash' (maybe not) the rivals with a better car, with all the features that vztrt referred to.

    It wont be long before Ford/Toyota 'fight back' and bring the game back to Holden. But doesnt all this competition force Holden to create a better car? I think so - see VE :)
     
  8. Reaper

    Reaper Tells it like it is.

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    1. Building cars is not the most profitable business in the world right now. To overburden the cars with extra equipment would be un-profitable over the longer term.
    2. Do you think any competitor will just sit there and watch their business go broke without making a real effort to stop the slide?? All that happens is both manufacturers make un profitable cars and eventually go broke.
    3. Should only 1 manufacturer survive. that is the *worst* thing that could happen because over time cars engineering & design departments get cut back to save money and equipment gets deleted from cars because there is no competition (what else are you going to buy???)

    Reaper
     
  9. haloeight

    haloeight New Member

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    welcome to the most basic principle of consumption/capitalism

    to consume a person needs a compelling reason to consume...i.e. improvements over time

    if there is no compelling reason to consume then the market becomes stagnant and people cease buying new things

    to stay in business in the current economic setup you need to get people consuming new items of your product, or you go broke

    say car development and improvements cased to be made after the VB commo, would you buy a new one today that is exactly the same if you had already done that in the 80's? no, because you would want to upgrade, not stay the same

    take for example DVD players, when they were new and improvements were still being made people were rushing to buy the things to get the improvements, now they are a "mature" product and they arent going to get a lot better, so people arent consuming them anymore, so the price falls to a ridiculously low price because the demand is now low, and the bulk of purchases now would be replacements for dead units.

    If holden played all their cards in one hit sure they would win for 1-2 years, but at the end of that they would be broke when the consumers would demand more and more for the same amount of money, and the technology hadnt advanced in pace with that. So like most industries they use a "treat em mean, keep em keen", tactic to keep people consuming their cars.

    When the import tariffs on imported cars are removed completely holden and ford AU will probably go broke, as every asian country under the sun that can produce cars at 1/3 the cost that we can (due to a lack of trade unions and sweatshops seen as an acceptable practice), will flood the market with crap cars and all the cheaparses (95% of the population) will flock to them, this is also a reason why holden is investing in korea, because people cant see the big picture beyond wanting to save a buck on something.

    The average consumer perception of holdens cars is that they are a rip-off and they can buy an excel 20k cheaper that will do the same job and be more fuel efficient, they dont look deeper in that by buying an australian car, they are investing in a future for their children, as when every australian manufacturing company goes broke, or is moved to china there will be a signifigantly smaller job market in AU for their kids. By buying cheap junk you are cheating your children of a future.
     
  10. fu2

    fu2 The Man With No Name

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    well said mate
     
  11. drewins

    drewins swear word

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    You said it haloeight!
    I think the perception of this car to the average Aussie will change from the old model. The quality of it is so much better and you are getting more for your money. But still, the average Aussie will still just look out for their own and buy what suits them financially rather than buy something because it will save jobs. And unfortunately, thats something you cant really change. The only good thing to come out of the Government making tariffs so low, is that it has forced Holden to make a much better car due to the amount of competition. Lets hope Australia sees that and opts for a Commodore rather than a piece of rice crap.
     
  12. vztrt

    vztrt New Member

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    You do realise that the tarifs are only 10% now on imported cars, korea actually pays the same wages as Australia, problem is for every doller you pay the workers there is 40c minimum that is payed in super, taxes and other costs.
     
  13. 1991_Vn2nV

    1991_Vn2nV New Member

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    I think Chinese car makers are the biggest threat... 10 year, 300,000 mile warranties on some brands and the newer chinese cars look pretty decent and are very very cheap. They have world class companies working on their cars too, with Lotus doing the engineering for some etc.
     
  14. Puggle

    Puggle New Member

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    Thankyou everyone for great responses-especially HALOEIGHT.

    I understand now!

    I really don't see how Ford can manage to still sell XRs though, except to the die hards. With the VE outclassing the BF in so many ways, and the fact that the VE is a starting point for much more future advances, whereas the Boss V8 is the last engine they currently fit into the XR8, I'm happy for our favourite brand.

    Here's a new question: What do we think of the new Ford vehicle coming in ?2009? ? 'Orion' or whatever. I've looked for info on google but can't find anything meaningful.

    Cheers, Matt
     
  15. Scotty_Doesn't_Know

    Scotty_Doesn't_Know Don't Tell Scotty...

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    What do we think? Don't you mean what do we CARE? :D
     
  16. vztrt

    vztrt New Member

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    Orion will be out in 08. I guess with the dramatic in fuel prices it can give Ford a heads up to give the new model more fuel efficient, one thing that the VE is being criticized about.

    Now everyone says that the VE outclasses the current Ford (not disputing this), but in what way?
     
  17. Puggle

    Puggle New Member

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    heck even my VYII outclasses the current ford interior lol. I can't get over how plastic and thin the steering wheel feels in the XR6T and I assume the rest of BA/BF...

    Maybe someone with more head knowledge on the VE can answer. It's all about new suspension, new chassis, new everything!
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2006
  18. 1991_Vn2nV

    1991_Vn2nV New Member

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    The 2008 Falcon should be good... But Ford will always be behind Holden in my books.

    Looks like the current I6 will remain, however it will have an alloy block making it an all alloy engine like Holdens Alloytech. Who knows what it looks like though, but its inspired by the Ford Europe Iosis concept car pictured below:
    [​IMG]

    Ford wont be spending as much money in development though as the $1 Billion Dollar VE. Ford have scaled back the funding for the 2008 Falcon however the government has given them another $100 million in a deal to ensure the 2008 Falcon will be exported overseas. Again it looks as though the 2008 Falcon will replace the Ford Crown Victoria in the United States and it will be designed in LHD and RHD formats.

    The Ford LTD and Fairlanes dont look to continue with the 2008 Falcon with combined sales now under 100 a month, it just doesnt seem profitable for Ford with the Statesman and Caprice being such a strong seller.

    Oh and it was mentioned by Ford that final designs would not be set in concrete until Christmas time as they were awaiting the VE, and changes to the car may take place depending on the reception of the VE Commodore, largely to the interior. I know the actual exterior design has been settles with Clay models existing for some time at Ford AU, however someone else here on JC said a full model would be built before the year is out... But I havent heard much of this myself.

    Lastly, front suspension will be a similar setup to that used on the current Ford Territory.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2006
  19. drewins

    drewins swear word

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    The Iosis sounds and looks like a disease. Too space age.
     
  20. vztrt

    vztrt New Member

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    Where did you hear this, why would they need to make an all alloy engine as it would only drop bout 10kg in the overall weight of the car.

    Also an Orion will be built before the year is out.
     

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