Christ, tonight is just gut-wrenching. They've already built the last ones.

[Forg]

I really don’t think it’s as evil as that.
I really do think that politicians think they’re (usually) doing the best thing they can for the country.
Even Abbott, the backwards deluded sh1t he spouts is sh1t he thinks is real.
Even when they take bribes & spend public money on their own stuff, they think it’s an irrelevant drop in the ocean (and it probably is).

Economic theory, which I believe is still considered to be the best we know, does say that if a country can’t do something as efficiently as another, then old inefficient industries will go to that “other” country & people move into the newer more efficient industries. Might screw-over people who were employed by Holden, but their kids do something more modern.
And any artificial stimulus (such as import tarrifs or tax deductions) which distorts this is temporary, a waste of money because there’ll be a correction eventually.

Not saying I believe this theory is all accurate; just that it gets implemented because people genuinely think it’s in the best interests of the country.

 

[lmfvf2ssredlineute]

our standard of living is going down, thousands of poor in victoria are getting there power gas or water cut off because they cant afford the high bills
some suburbs of melbourne house prices have risen 40% in 12 months
pensioners living cost don't keep up with pension rises
soon there will be no middle class, only the rich and the poor, glad i wont be around to see it
as far as aussies not buying commodores, most people just prefer cheap, weather its socks, shoes you name it with today's high cost living pressure, you cant blame people.

 

[SnowDoggyDogg]

This is the problem with a low inflation future.

Previously your wage would grow with the inflation rate, in 1997 Howard (and Costello) decoupled house prices from the CPI basket and doubled the discount on capital gains for houses. That action plus negative gearing has led to perverse distortions of investment (really speculation) into real estate.

This is why our big four banks turned their lending portfolios on their heads (from 2/3 commercial and 1/3 residential to the other way around). Ever try getting a small business loan without a house as collateral in the past decade? Good luck.

The economy shifted from a once in a lifetime mining boom that jacked up the Aussie dollar to housing construction. Mismanagement from both Liberal and Labour allowed the AUD at or above parity with the USD for sustained periods of time, killing anyone producing something locally and selling overseas or domestically. Companies that have been Australian through two world wars and the great depression have left because if economic mismanagement by the past two decades of governments.

To lose advanced manufacturing like this should actually devolve our nation's economic profile. We can no longer call ourselves an advanced economic country. We are primary producers of dirt, energy (which we ship as LNG to overseas markets at much much cheaper contracts than we accept domestically), tourism and services towards ourselves.

We are once again a Banana Republic. Congratulations to the successive Commonwealth governments that systemically ruined our prosperity.

We've had to import hundreds of thousands of people a year to keep the GDP streak alive and prop up the housing ponzi of the banks and construction industry. This sustained high level of immigration is erroding the quality of life people once enjoyed as we cannot build the schools, hospitals and other necessary infrastructure to support them NSW and QLD need over 400 new schools between them in the next decade to meet the demand we are importing in. I doubt 10% of those schools will be built and staffed.

RIP Holden. RIP manufacturing. RIP advanced economic economy. RIP standards of living. RIP Aussie way of life.

 

[SnowDoggyDogg]

Hey Cuda - not to be personal but both you and a post further down from Clay highlight some of the fallacy at play here in the Aussie economy.

Your story is of your son and daughter in law being on the hook for three mortgages across a single asset stream of housing. That is a huge gamble that the value of the housing doesn't go down (like say currently in Perth, any mining town, or soon to be Adelaide) or that rents won't be forced lower (like Perth, Brisbane or many other places). Selling an illiquid asset like a house in a declining market can be impossible without taking huge losses or going bankrupt.

Clay wants to use equity in his current place to buy another place.... he's looking to build the same house of cards your son has. This is not a good long term strategy for anyone but the banks lending you money.

We're at the point where we need the equity of multiple homes to buy a house. To go 'all in' on monsterous amounts of debt for a roof over our heads.

Cuda it was not this way in your time or your parents time. You could buy a house outright because your wage would inflate away the cost of the mortgage. 7% inflation (typical right up until the late 80s) is a doubling of wage in 10 years. That's without a bonfide pay increase. Banks also only lent on one income so the missus's wage (if she worked) was money for jam.

Please don't confuse the gigantic gamble your son and daughter in law have taken on 'as set for life'. I truly hope it does work out for them but I also hope you recognise how much they are risking and if they need help in the future that you or her parents will be their safety net.

Despite all the gloom, there is hope. My Eldest Son is 27. He and his Wife have just moved into their newly built 4 bedroom home. Their first two are rentals. The rent pays the mortgages. They have a 1 year old Daughter. So, they've been on 1 wage for nearly a year. He owns a VE Redline Sportwagon (his Wife's car) and he is about to buy an E3 GTS or a VF Redline. Together, my Son and Daughter inlaw have set themselves up for life, in a few short years. How? Neither have a uni degree. Despite my pushing for it. What they have done is worked hard since school. Chosen a life in a regional city, not the overpriced capitals. Gone without. Started with a modest home and built up from there. They've done extremely well and I am so proud of them. Others can do it too. It is an opportunistic time. Make the most of it while it lasts.

 

[jetfrost]

Well I agree with all ofthe above reasons why we don't have HVO anymore.
This is what we lost

So thank you for the.....

Ignorance from govco, ignorance from carco execs and ignorance from the buying public ?

RIP Holden. RIP manufacturing. RIP advanced economic economy. RIP standards of living. RIP Aussie way of life.

 

[426Cuda]

426Cuda, while maybe it looked like the (admittedly evil in my eyes) Coalition forces could have stopped this, I don’t think that’s actually true 3-4 years later.
If you look at the sale of Opel, and the cost-cutting measures GM have made since then (and are still making), I don’t think that much a government could have done would’ve made any difference. You’re talking about million-dollar subsidies/incentives playing against billion-dollar problems with GM.

tml678 ... sorry, I don’t think that’s fair. I think the VE was a brilliant design, something which maybe didn’t have enough market locally but was highly saleable compared to production-costs worldwide. And the facelift, VF, was an extra 5% change that made the product seem like an extra 150% - just brilliant. You might have misconstrued something I’ve said; the VF was chosen by us on the basis of how good it actually was, not some one-eyed fanboism which must’ve driven the sale of a lot of less-convincing lower-quality Holden product in the past.
I’m bitter that the owners simply took to Holden with a machete, refused to allow the worldwide sales that the VE’s business-case was based on due to a childish “they did it better than us so we refuse to let their product be mass-manufactured”, and in the end shut down Holden due to heinous economic mismanagement at Head Office.

Hey Forg. As I said, it's on the record. It was an ultimatum. Hockey played hard ball and lost (pun not intended).
But, as I also said, there were many forces at play, that lead to the decision to stop building Holden's domestically. Some internal, some external, some from the parent, some govt policy based, some buyer behaviour. Many forces have changed the market. For the worse in my opinion. Holden certainly made some blunders along the way too. No doubt. Rebadging Daewoo crap as Holden for one example; I can call them crap, as our family has owned a few and crap they were. We've also owned a few Euro built Astra's and they were great cars. Maybe we were just lucky with those? My Wife's 15 year old Astra was a better car in many ways than my Daughter's (now) 3 year old Focus.
Holden made decisions in the past, plans, which if carried out, would have likely meant we wouldn't be having this conversation. They didn't and now it's too late.

You may think I'm one eyed? I'm not. I love the Holden brand. But my pseudonym should give some clue at least, to my love for Chrysler too. There are others too. Ford has made some crackers, BMW, Merc, Toyota, Nissan, the list goes on. They've all made some crap cars too. Dont get me stared on Euro, or Japanese, or others quality. There's a plethora of examples of every marque building cars with fatal flaws. Quality is a perception in so many ways. To me, quality means the car does what it was designed to do, for many years. Without major, or multiple minor failures. If used as intended and properly cared for. Every Commodore I've ever owned has lived up to this expectation. Is a high priced BMW which is know for blown engines at <10,000k's a quality car? I reckon they're cracking cars in many ways. But I'd never own one, for that reason alone. Conversely, I rate the Commodore as a fantastic car. Dollar for $ the best car of its type in the world in my view. Hands down. I'm not alone either. It's the right car for me. For our Family. So why not others?

It's not the Commodore that's irrelevant to us. But many of the other cars such as the Mazda 3 you espouse. Even my 20 something Daughter wants to get a V8 ute next. The Focus has tainted her view of small to medium cars. It's a piece of crap. She hates the Mazda 3 and Corolla after driving her friends'.
She loves my cars and still reckons her Brother's SSV ute was the most fun car she's ever driven. Irrelevant? No, not at all.
As far as the Kia Swinger goes, for me that car is irrelevant. It's a turboed ricer, which I haven't the slightest interest in. It'll be long forgotten in no time, while the VF will continue to be viewed as a modern day classic. I have no doubt that in 30 years from now they'll still be around and still revered.

Govt policy has played a massive part in the cancerous demise of Aussie manufacturing. You are correct. It was self serving political decision making. Although that isn't a justification. It's a political disgrace.

 

[SSteve]

Well I agree with all ofthe above reasons why we don't have HVO anymore.
This is what we lost

So thank you for the.....

Beautiful and so disappointing at the same time. Thank you for sharing.

 

[426Cuda]

Hey Cuda - not to be personal but both you and a post further down from Clay highlight some of the fallacy at play here in the Aussie economy.

Your story is of your son and daughter in law being on the hook for three mortgages across a single asset stream of housing. That is a huge gamble that the value of the housing doesn't go down (like say currently in Perth, any mining town, or soon to be Adelaide) or that rents won't be forced lower (like Perth, Brisbane or many other places). Selling an illiquid asset like a house in a declining market can be impossible without taking huge losses or going bankrupt.

Clay wants to use equity in his current place to buy another place.... he's looking to build the same house of cards your son has. This is not a good long term strategy for anyone but the banks lending you money.

We're at the point where we need the equity of multiple homes to buy a house. To go 'all in' on monsterous amounts of debt for a roof over our heads.

Cuda it was not this way in your time or your parents time. You could buy a house outright because your wage would inflate away the cost of the mortgage. 7% inflation (typical right up until the late 80s) is a doubling of wage in 10 years. That's without a bonfide pay increase. Banks also only lent on one income so the missus's wage (if she worked) was money for jam.

Please don't confuse the gigantic gamble your son and daughter in law have taken on 'as set for life'. I truly hope it does work out for them but I also hope you recognise how much they are risking and if they need help in the future that you or her parents will be their safety net.

Hey Snowdogg,
Not at all mate. In theory you make some very valid points. I would agree almost implicitly, if we were talking capital city or other high growth markets. But, we're not. Their strategy is sound and it's also low risk. The housing market here is a slow growth, but very stable. I have local data going back more than 60 years. On top of that, they haven't over capitalised. Their first modest home cost $169k in 2010. It's now worth around $230k. Possibly more. Why? Because it needed work and was undervalued. They did the work themselves, with tradie mates, me and my Wife pitched in too. They've had it rented for over three years and the rent has more than covered the minimum mortgage repayments, (Wagga gas a stable resilient economy, with high demand for residential rent). Yet housing is cheap. We get a far greater return on our rental properties than can be achieved in high growth capital city markets. Higher than we could achieve through any other investment strategy, with a similar risk profile. How much money have we all (individually) lost on cars over that same period. Not investments I know. But, food for thought. If my lad and his wife sold their rentals today, they would have in excess of $160k capital gain, over an average of 4.5 years of ownership. The market is stable and they bought at the right price. Smart investor strategy.
Jumping into the housing market blindly, even for your principal residence is a fools folly. Studying the market, talking to the right people, doing your due diligence and investing based on your findings. If it's affordable.That is a calculated risk approach and one I would recommend to anyone, as a finance expert.
Investing in a capital city? Not for me thanks. The rewards can be there. My nephew made $700k in 3 years on one house. But, the risks are too great for this little conservative investor.
Cheers mate.

 

[426Cuda]

Well I agree with all ofthe above reasons why we don't have HVO anymore.
This is what we lost

So thank you for the.....

That was moving. So very sad.
Thank you Jet.

 

[VT&VX]

How many people really make decisions for the FUTURE?

When we think Future are we really thinking about the time until the end of OUR Future?
Old people 10 - 20 years
Politicians 2 - 4 years and most of that is hording investment opportunities (business friends) for themselves after their political life ends.

If Governments were interested in creating a legacy for their country then they wouldn't sell off government funded infrastructure and the businesses that bring in that money, they wouldn't outsource every other government admin job to the point of double handing every task in government (so the decision to sell that government business at a loss looks like a good decision) BUT they would establish government owned businesses to fill the gaps and put controls on the potential for gouging of the Mum and Dad consumers. The training opportunities in these government businesses should offset some of the money that is being wasted in education because the first job (hands on training) is there waiting.

All the people who just lost their jobs will lose those skills. So we will have to bring in overseas people to show us how to do it again.
People innovate from experience, it takes some a bit longer than others.
OR just buy a robot and they will do it the same way (whether it is the best way or not) until they wear out.