VE HVAC System Info

[GTS98]

Found this on Carsales.
Thought it might be interesting for some.
Also sometimes stuff like this is deleted and lost so handy info to save for prosperity.

Source:
https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/ve-under-the-skin-keeping-its-cool-1341/


VE under the skin: keeping its cool
Holden has built a VE Commodore for all climes -- from the Sahara to the Arctic Circle

View attachment 208623
*** My edit *** note the under seat ducts. I don't think any Aussie cars have these. This is not a Statesman HVAC system with the facia fitted to the the setup. These ports are there, but blanked off.
Interesting none the less.

The new VE Commodore gave Holden engineers the opportunity to start again with the Commodore's underbonnet cooling and air-conditioning hardware and the cabin's heating, ventilation and air-conditioning system (HVAC) it supports.

Holden compares the interior packaging of VE HVAC components to a Swiss watch after they played a key role in freeing-up space. Underbonnet advances have not only boosted cooling but reduced weight, improved efficiency and slashed heater warm-up times.

After becoming the leader in the GM world with its pioneering high temperature work in the Middle East, Holden has consolidated this achievement (via intensive development in no less than eight different climatic tunnels in Australia, North America and Japan) to include extreme cold. Unlike previous Holden validation programs which wre limited to -5 degrees C, the VE meets GM's global standard of -20.

The program has already included a 6000km climate control validation trip in the USA that covered the full range of North American climate extremes. Two extended desert proving ground tests at GM proving ground at Mesa, Arizona involved sustained cruising at 250km/h under extreme (high) temperatures.

The improvements in the VE include:

Cooling System
• Holden has switched from the traditional Commodore cross-flow radiator to down flow. The top and bottom radiator tanks now match the full width of the radiator and are no longer restricted to radiator height as previously. The transmission cooler in the bottom tank grows from the VZ's 290mm to 450mm for a huge lift in cooling capacity.
• A new power steering cooler is installed in the bottom row of the air-conditioning condenser for a similar boost in cooling capacity and a 20 per cent reduction in fluid temperatures during power-steering abuse testing.
• The V6 models have a 24mm radiator core while the V8 is boosted to 40mm.
• Twin puller fans with new blade designs provide 70 per cent coverage of the radiator core compared to 55 per cent for the VZ. These new fans exploit new airflow distribution based on computational fluid dynamics that optimize a path into the engine bay then under.
• Radiator cooling fans for the V6 models now have three speeds. Although the V8 continues with two speeds, the fan design is all new.
• A new radiator cap design with two O-ring seals separates the sealing function from the pressure relief valve so that sealing is not disturbed when the pressure relief valve opens and shuts.
• The new Condenser Radiator Fan Module (radiator, condenser and fans) is supplied by Behr, South Africa, a manufacturer which also supplies BMW.
• Coolant is a new premium long life specification. A large and easily accessed radiator drain plug allows fast draining and capture of the coolant without contamination during repairs for re-use and environmental safety.
• The standard cooling system does not require any upgrades for the 2100kg tow pack, highlighting the big margin for everyday usage.

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Air-conditioning
• An all-new air-conditioning condenser features an integrated receiver-drier that forms one of the vertical ends of the condenser. A novel radiator tilt function allows access to the internals of this fixed receiver-drier for easy periodic replacement. Previous systems rely on a separate throwaway part hanging-off fragile plumbing that can fatigue and leak. This breakthrough along with other efficiencies cut the amount of refrigerant charge by 27 per cent compared to VZ with environmental and cost benefits.
• A new light weight air-conditioning compressor features clutchless operation usually only seen on European luxury cars. Unlike a clutch-type which is on or off, this latest compressor design has seamless operation with infinitely variable displacement. It can ramp up or down tailoring the exact refrigerant flow for conditions thus requiring 10-30 per cent less fuel at lower temperatures. Holden claims these are real world fuel savings which won't show up in current fuel consumption standards when they do not factor in air-conditioner usage.
• Cabin controls now activate electric HVAC operation to change modes compared to vacuum servos in the VZ. These are quieter and more reliable.
• A straight airflow path from the evaporator reduces noise, increases airflow and delivers more effective dual zone performance where fitted.
• Owners can now specify a dealer-fit pollen filter.

Heating/Ducting
• New Alloytec V6 engines reduced warm-up times significantly in VZ. The latest VE heater core design improves warm-up rate by a further 15-20 per cent.
• The base VE Omega features nine ducts compared to five in the base VZ.
• Previous VZ centre rear vents supplied cool air only but new VE ducting can now supply warm air as well. Caprice has additional foot level vents for rear passengers.
• Face level and lower heating modes when engaged together will split into upper cooling air/lower warmer air automatically once the cabin reaches the pre-set temperature.
• Side window demist has individual ducts for the first time.
• Cold climate heating and demisting has been optimized with a 38 per cent boost in airflow while in defrost/demist mode.
• Linear fan control delivers 20 fan speeds compared to four in base VZ air-conditioning or five in VZ climate control systems.

View attachment 208624

For info relating to function problems see the following:

Replacing actuators:
https://www.autoinstruct.com.au/man...dore/replacing-air-conditioner-actuator-hvac/

Or

For replacement of the AC evaporator, complete removal of the HVAC is now no longer required, with the non factory workaround outlined here by @J_D 2.0

VE Interior Design
https://www.goauto.com.au/future-models/holden/commodore/ve/ve-the-inside-story/2006-07-19/7776.html


Edit: Valid points made here.
There should be better focus on design that compliments simpler repairs of consumable parts.

G’day just wandering if anyone would have any idea why my ve ssv redline keeps loosing air con gas, I’ve constantly had it checked and no leaks have ever been found, I get it re gassed every 2 to 3 months and no leaks are found??? I keep questioning as to why this is happening but never get answers. Hopefully someone has had the same issue

 

[krusing]

If you need to re-gas it, its leaking,
there is NO reason you need to keep re-gassing it, as they are Sealed Systems

Did the air con tech not vac it properly ?,
and leave it for 1/2 hour and check the result,
Place fluorescent oil in it ?, that will indicate the leak under UV light.

The VERY common place they leak is the High pressure hose between the condenser and the motor,
just before the compressor,

Image is worth a thousand words.

 

[Fu Manchu]

Yep. As above.

Also get someone else to check the leaks. Dye and a gas sniffer will find the leak in minutes.

A leaking evaporator is worst case. A sniffer will find the leak from under the car via the drain plug or via the air vents. A best of times, a worst of times situations job best done at home in the shed/drive/garage. I’d suggest getting a whole HVAC from the wrecker. Overhaul it. New heater core, evap core. Cleaned. Washed. New seals using K-Flex from Hammerbarn. New TXV.

If you have an overhauled HVAC ready to go straight in, you will save a day or two doing the repair. The. Overhaul the one you pull out and on sell it.

 

[GTS98]

If you need to re-gas it, its leaking,
there is NO reason you need to keep re-gassing it, as they are Sealed Systems

Did the air con tech not vac it properly ?,
and leave it for 1/2 hour and check the result,
Place fluorescent oil in it ?, that will indicate the leak under UV light.

The VERY common place they leak is the High pressure hose between the condenser and the motor,
just before the compressor,

Image is worth a thousand words.

G’day thanks for the reply, and yes, I have the dye put in, the vac done, and yes also the sniffer and constantly get told no leaks??? I keep questioning my air con guy as why am I having to regas it always??? The heater works all good just the air has issues. When it’s regassed the air con is icy cold but doesn’t last. It is literally doing my head in as to if it is leaking where is it from and why can’t it be found???

 

[lmoengnr]

G’day thanks for the reply, and yes, I have the dye put in, the vac done, and yes also the sniffer and constantly get told no leaks??? I keep questioning my air con guy as why am I having to regas it always??? The heater works all good just the air has issues. When it’s regassed the air con is icy cold but doesn’t last. It is literally doing my head in as to if it is leaking where is it from and why can’t it be found???

Time to use a different 'air con guy'...

 

[GTS98]

Time to use a different 'air con guy'...

Yeah, I’ll try another shop and see what the outcome will be.

 

[Skylarking]

AC mechanics need to be licensed and should follow the industry code of practice which sadly many do not (since simply topping up without checking for leaks isn’t allowed).

As you’ve had continual leaks and top ups, I’d go to someone else for AC service, someone who follows the code. Then get them to look at it.

Best practice is to evacuate the system for a while (as this evaporates any moisture within) and then close the system off and monitor that it can actually hold vacuum (checks for vacuum leaks) before filling with nitrogen to 350psi (?) and monitoring it holds pressure (checks for pressure leaks). Only if vacuum or pressure leaks aren’t occurring should the AC mechanic then fill up with the correct ac gas also toping up with the correct volume and weight of PAG oil if needed.

And here’s where another problem occurs. With leaks that occur quickly, they do take PAG oil out of the system via the leak point (which is why fluro dyes work in finding big leaks). As such, any lost PAG oil must be topped up so that the correct overall volume within the system is maintained. But knowing how much has been lost is time consuming black magic. Having too much oil or too little oil is bad and can ultimately damage the compressor. Best method is to remove the compressor and drain and measure the amount of oil taken out and then factor in how much oil is still within the other parts of the system (the black magic part) so that the corrected amount of oil can put into the compressor. There are charts produced by the manufacturers that estimates the amount of oil that should be added when certain components are replaced.

The fact you’ve had lots to top ups in relatively quick succession makes it all the more difficult as you’ve probably lost an amount of oil that’s difficult to estimate without effort (=cost).

Also I’d guess the engine bay is dirty and oily which may (or may not) make it hard to see the dye glow green under UV light, may be… It could be worth giving the engine bay a really good clean (especially around all AC components including under the car near the HVAC drain vent). Then get the AC looked at by a better AC tech as the ones you’ve gone to are just lazy. (You may want to run this past your new AC mechanic before you clean the engine bay).

I‘d be surprised if no leaks can be found, after evacuating and charging with nitrogen. The leak may be hard to see because of modern packaging and beauty shields and covers in modern cars. But AC guys know this just as the6 know that if they can5 find a leak within the engine bay to push a stick up the HVAC drain tube and check whether the stuff on the stick glows green under UV light. If the slime on the stick glows green, you’ve got an evaporator leak (which is $$$ to fix).

Good luck with finding an honest and decent AC mechanic.

PS: IIRC, all modern vehicle AC systems have a dye pill installed during manufacture. Normally it’s not something that should be added unless the system has leaked heaps. And before it’s added, the leak should be identified and fixed, else it’s just a money grab and risking your compressor in the process (because of associated oil loss as I’ve said).…

Lastly, if the system is opened up to at o sphere for more than 5 or 10 minutes, a new desiccant/filter bag must be installed which is something erase most AC guys don’t do…

 

[lout]

as usual another user with victoria or australia for their location
if we knew where you are, we may be able to recommend someone

 

[GTS98]

AC mechanics need to be licensed and should follow the industry code of practice which sadly many do not (since simply topping up without checking for leaks isn’t allowed).

As you’ve had continual leaks and top ups, I’d go to someone else for AC service, someone who follows the code. Then get them to look at it.

Best practice is to evacuate the system for a while (as this evaporates any moisture within) and then close the system off and monitor that it can actually hold vacuum (checks for vacuum leaks) before filling with nitrogen to 350psi (?) and monitoring it holds pressure (checks for pressure leaks). Only if vacuum or pressure leaks aren’t occurring should the AC mechanic then fill up with the correct ac gas also toping up with the correct volume and weight of PAG oil if needed.

And here’s where another problem occurs. With leaks that occur quickly, they do take PAG oil out of the system via the leak point (which is why fluro dyes work in finding big leaks). As such, any lost PAG oil must be topped up so that the correct overall volume within the system is maintained. But knowing how much has been lost is time consuming black magic. Having too much oil or too little oil is bad and can ultimately damage the compressor. Best method is to remove the compressor and drain and measure the amount of oil taken out and then factor in how much oil is still within the other parts of the system (the black magic part) so that the corrected amount of oil can put into the compressor. There are charts produced by the manufacturers that estimates the amount of oil that should be added when certain components are replaced.

The fact you’ve had lots to top ups in relatively quick succession makes it all the more difficult as you’ve probably lost an amount of oil that’s difficult to estimate without effort (=cost).

Also I’d guess the engine bay is dirty and oily which may (or may not) make it hard to see the dye glow green under UV light, may be… It could be worth giving the engine bay a really good clean (especially around all AC components including under the car near the HVAC drain vent). Then get the AC looked at by a better AC tech as the ones you’ve gone to are just lazy. (You may want to run this past your new AC mechanic before you clean the engine bay).

I‘d be surprised if no leaks can be found, after evacuating and charging with nitrogen. The leak may be hard to see because of modern packaging and beauty shields and covers in modern cars. But AC guys know this just as the6 know that if they can5 find a leak within the engine bay to push a stick up the HVAC drain tube and check whether the stuff on the stick glows green under UV light. If the slime on the stick glows green, you’ve got an evaporator leak (which is $$$ to fix).

Good luck with finding an honest and decent AC mechanic.

PS: IIRC, all modern vehicle AC systems have a dye pill installed during manufacture. Normally it’s not something that should be added unless the system has leaked heaps. And before it’s added, the leak should be identified and fixed, else it’s just a money grab and risking your compressor in the process (because of associated oil loss as I’ve said).…

Lastly, if the system is opened up to at o sphere for more than 5 or 10 minutes, a new desiccant/filter bag must be installed which is something erase most AC guys don’t do…

Thank you for that comprehensive in put, I do believe that the guy I had been using in the past does a vac/ pressure test to see if it’s holding pressure and it does?? Well according to him? He gets rid of any air in the system before refilling, as for everything else I’m not 100% sure, my engine bay has no oily residue or leaks, honestly the engine bay is clean, I don’t work on the car myself always use to go to holden, it’s only got 140 thou k’s. I’m in Melbourne sth east suburbs so if anyone knows of a great a/c mechanic that would be awesome.

 

[lout]

bayside radiators in seaford
one of the best guys around
and super honest
took a viva in to get compressor replaced
turned out there was a little bypass valve inside the compressor
$170 later fixed and regassed
next mazda 6
leaking schrader valve $140 fixed and regassed