VE money making

[monaroCountry]

in my view, holden face some major problems with the VE and as has been said its based around fuel pricing. people are moving away from big cars and engines, not just in australia but in countries like the US as well.

this is not rocket science, their market is shrinking. as fuel prices are unlikely to ease and probably will get worse, the problem will only get bigger for them.

Fuel prices have indeed risen. North America have gone to the Ethanol route (E85) and have looked at the example set by Brazil. GM has a very health and advanced E85 program, so does Holden - they supply Brazil with E85 Omega Commodores. Toyota and other Japanese/European manufacturers have gone to hybrids and diesel. IMO Diesel is a stop gap measure and still relies on foreign oil producers (not good).

In Australia I hope that LPG would be the dominant response. Holden and Ford already have factory vehicles with LPG. I’m mystified why the media have not promoted LPG as an alternative. They continually side with the Japanese (electric) and the Europeans (diesel).

Really shows their snobby attitude of anything European = good, anything Japanese = good and anything Australian = bad.

Since we're off in a tangent, if the loss of sales due to various factors (eg fuel price, etc) won't kill the local car industry, I think China may lol, but seriously, the car industry in China is growing and growing and is currentliy massive. They can produce cheap and somewhat 'decent' car, which I feel may steal sales away from the locals, and if this occurs, effectively lowering the profit from local sales of Holdens. We will of course, have to wait as time will tell if the Chinese manufacturers make a dent in the local industry.

China has been the savior for Holden and GM. Holden now supplies China with 3.2L/2.8? statesmen (as Buicks). GM is also a dominant maker in China. Chinese cars would most likely be a challenger in the cheap car segment. Toyota, Kia’s, and Hyundai’s would be in big trouble.

as parts makers pack up and go home to china or wherever, the viability of the local car making industry reduces. this is already happening to some degree and if one of the 4 locals closes down, there will be a knock on effect.

secondly ford and GM are pretty close to going under, their stocks are virtually junk on the market. mitsubishi isn't that much better. the only really strong company of the 4 locals is toyota. their local operation cannot survive on its own as a manufacturer, in fact toyota has recently restructured its australian operation with an emphasis on R&D rather than designing and building the local camry/aurion.

With the current attitude of Australia = Bad and Japanese and Euro = Good it was never a surprise. Look at the British example, look who owns Jaguar.

GM are not going to go under, they are simply way to big to have that happen.

GM’s problem are not their inability to sell cars but with their overly generous workers agreements (especially health benefits). GM has started turning this around. Toyota on the other hand have experienced many recalls.

As for R&D of Australian manufacturers for world programs, Holden would have by far the largest role (of the 4 manufacturers). Holden has the 3rd biggest design facilities in GM, have their own engine plant and also responsible for developing the Zeta platform (in the VE commodore) which is now known as GM’s global RWD architecture. GM and Holden have invested a far larger amount of $$$ in Australia than Toyota, Ford and Mitsubishi.

Camry survives because of its strong exports. Locally Holden is the stronger of the two, in both export (especially the VE) and satisfying local demands.

to get to 1 billion over 5 years, they'd have to add $334 to every commodore sold. Yet the price has dropped since the VZ... go figure

Easier and cheaper manufacturing. Also the global RWD platform.

 

[jules]

GM are not going to go under, they are simply way to big to have that happen.

i'm not in any way hoping or saying it will happen, but size is absolutely no protection. when your share price is as low as GM's is, you are ripe for takeover and that's what happened to chrysler.

in that circumstance there's a good chance the GM name will survive, like chrysler's. but in chrysler's case the decisions are made in germany now.

 

[Scotty_Doesn't_Know]

In Australia I hope that LPG would be the dominant response. Holden and Ford already have factory vehicles with LPG. I’m mystified why the media have not promoted LPG as an alternative. They continually side with the Japanese (electric) and the Europeans (diesel).

Hahaha! Do you know what LPG stands for buddy? I'm guessing not... LPG is Liquid Petrolium Gas and it's the gas bi-product of refining oil into usable fuel. I'm sorry, but LPG is also a stop gap solution because in order for LPG to be produced, fuel still needs to be refined.

And on the comment about relying on foreign oil... Do you all realise that more than 90% of Australia's oil comes from our OWN supplies... Our OWN oil rigs and our OWN oil refineries? Just some more food for thought. The reason our OWN oil continues to rise in price with the global price is because we export so much of it to other countries (like China, NZ etc) that the Australian oil companies wouldn't be making as much money if they continued to sell Australians cheaper oil products.

The solution to the fossil fuel problem is a complex one but in the end, it will be necessesty that forces everyone's hand. When the world runs out of usable fossil fuels, we will be forced to adopt technologies t hat get stifled or bought by the oil companies. We there is no oil, we will all be using new fuel technologies. The world will end up a cleaner place... I look forward to that day. Until then, I will continue to enjoy driving my large cars and not care about paying $1.50+ for fuel. Hell the price has been much higher than that in Europe for YEARS!!! And they're not complaining like the Australian media... Do you NEED fuel if you run one or more vehicles? YES!!! Do you need a 106cm Plasma TV? No...

 

[vztrt]

Hahaha! Do you know what LPG stands for buddy? I'm guessing not... LPG is Liquid Petrolium Gas and it's the gas bi-product of refining oil into usable fuel. I'm sorry, but LPG is also a stop gap solution because in order for LPG to be produced, fuel still needs to be refined.

Thats correct, too bad we cant get natural gas into LPG tanks. But I have heard that Honda have worked out a way to compress natural gas unlike the buses that run on the stuff that use a tank as long as the bus.

 

[Reaper]

Well the government discounted prices I can get takes off $9000 - $10000 for any of the new VE's. So there has to be a huge profit margin somewhere? Or is it the dealers with those margins? What do Holden actually get for the cars?

What any manufacturer makes on a car is really a question of accounting method. Is it raw cost of the car (how much it costs to buy the parts + direct labour costs)? Or do you add in the cost of overheads? or do you add in a little R&D??? Then how do you appropriate that R&D - is it in arrears or as a forward charge??? How do you appropriate your overheads - are they equally dispersed amongst all models (even though some will require significant more overhead resourse than others) and how do you handle spare parts and broader merchandising??? Do marketing programs such as motor racing etc get charged to the Commodore overhead or do they go over the entire range??

To say how much any specific car costs is an extremely complex question to answer.

Reaper

 

[Reaper]

i'm not in any way hoping or saying it will happen, but size is absolutely no protection. when your share price is as low as GM's is, you are ripe for takeover and that's what happened to chrysler.

in that circumstance there's a good chance the GM name will survive, like chrysler's. but in chrysler's case the decisions are made in germany now.

With the recent changes, operationally GM are well and truely in the black. They have had some huge one off chages related to their downsizing that show an overall loss. Even so, they are still cash positive (the real indicator when it comes to companies going broke).

GM have a raft of new models coming to the market in the near future which is a good sign for the future. Whilst I wouldn't be betting the house on their stock, I'd look at their stock quite closely right now.

Reaper

 

[jules]

Hahaha! Do you know what LPG stands for buddy? I'm guessing not... LPG is Liquid Petrolium Gas and it's the gas bi-product of refining oil into usable fuel. I'm sorry, but LPG is also a stop gap solution because in order for LPG to be produced, fuel still needs to be refined.

actually LPG is sourced as both a naturally occurring product (butane or propane) or as a byproduct of oil refining. in australia, it occurs naturally in large amounts.

more here

And on the comment about relying on foreign oil... Do you all realise that more than 90% of Australia's oil comes from our OWN supplies... Our OWN oil rigs and our OWN oil refineries?

again that's not quite true. here are the real figures:

Almost 90 per cent of the petroleum products consumed in Australia are produced by Australian refineries with these refineries sourcing 60 per cent of their crude oils from overseas markets.

Just some more food for thought. The reason our OWN oil continues to rise in price with the global price is because we export so much of it to other countries (like China, NZ etc) that the Australian oil companies wouldn't be making as much money if they continued to sell Australians cheaper oil products.

this is partly true. we don't export much, but the price is linked to overseas markets. it's a pipe dream to think the australian govt. or oil companies will sell oil (petrol) to australians at a huge discount to world prices though. it would be nice if they did, but it would also be nice to have free beer.

Hell the price has been much higher than that in Europe for YEARS!!! And they're not complaining like the Australian media... Do you NEED fuel if you run one or more vehicles? YES!!! Do you need a 106cm Plasma TV? No...

they cope with higher petrol prices by driving little Fiats though.

 

[1991_Vn2nV]

Hahaha! Do you know what LPG stands for buddy? I'm guessing not... LPG is Liquid Petrolium Gas and it's the gas bi-product of refining oil into usable fuel. I'm sorry, but LPG is also a stop gap solution because in order for LPG to be produced, fuel still needs to be refined.

:rofl: LPG stands for LIQUIFIED Petroleum Gas...

It can also be made by refning NATURAL gas, so it is not completely reliant on oil.

Maybe you should learn the facts yourself before you go abusing other peoples comments?

 

[Puggle]

Why is anyone looking forward to future fuel sources? Sure the planet will be happy and clean, but our wallets certainly won't. It's a widely known and believed rumour that there exist already, engines efficiently running on hydrogen and other cheap clean fuels, but the oil companies bought these designs very quickly and won't ever release them until they need to.

Yes I'm being a little 'conspiracy theorist' here but consider this:
When the day finally rocks around when cars run on H20 and emit nothing, and fossil fuels are long depleted, we will still be paying $70 to oil companies (now rebranded) to drive our car 500km. There is no doubt they will buy every engine technology they can that threatens their oil market, and when the time comes to use it, replace fuel profits with equal profits from the new technologies.

 

[davey g-force]

the global car making industry is haemoraging right now. things are likely to be arranged quite differently in 10 years time to what they are now.

I dread to think, but in ten years time we'll probably be driving around in poxy little electric cars that sound like vacuum cleaners! *cringe*

Maybe I should buy a VE SSV and just store it as a weekender?

Seriously, in the meantime though, fuel prices don't bother me too much. Although it will affect sales of large cars to some extent, people like me who love their cars still want a nice V8 and are prepared to wear the fuel costs...