Welcome to Just Commodores, a site specifically designed for all people who share the same passion as yourself.

New Posts Contact us

Just Commodores Forum Community

It takes just a moment to join our fantastic community

Register

Household water heaters/ Heating

DavesSV6Tonner

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2019
Messages
651
Reaction score
1,547
Points
93
Location
Australia
Members Ride
VZ S V6 Cab & Chassis
You need to replace the anode/s in the tank if you want more than 10 years out of the tanks. As soon as the sacrificial anode is consumed the tank will start to rust and it’s goodbye tank. You should replace the anode at least every 6-8 years.
7 years is the recommended annode replacement interval and the annode type needs to match your local water quality.
The steel tanks are lined with a vitreous enamel coating, the problem is the coating eventually cracks due to expansion and contraction and the water pressure exerted inside the tank.
I think the oldest Rheem I ever replaced was 28 years old but that said for most of those 28 years there was only one person living in the house.
Glass lined steel cylinder HWS of all brands typically last around 12 years with a family of 4 - 6 people.

I'm not a fan of heat pump HWS because of their high initial set up cost, poor reliability and high repair/replacement costs, however, I have installed a few Hydrotherm heat pump HWS. Two of these were for my brother's house back in 2016 and they have run faultlessly to date.
I was so impressed with the Hydrotherm I have actually recommended and installed them for two of my clients who were set on having a heat pump HWS and were contemplating other well know aussie brands. Brands that I have seen fail and they were only 5 years old.

The Hydrotherm heat pumps seem to be one of the few products coming out of China that are actually good quality and they have a stainless steel storage tank. Disclaimer: I am not associated with Hydrotherm HWS in any way, shape or form.
 

J_D 2.0

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2020
Messages
2,979
Reaction score
7,036
Points
113
Location
Ipswich
Members Ride
2009 VE SSV M6 on LPG and 2022 Kawasaki Z650L
7 years is the recommended annode replacement interval and the annode type needs to match your local water quality.
The steel tanks are lined with a vitreous enamel coating, the problem is the coating eventually cracks due to expansion and contraction and the water pressure exerted inside the tank.
I think the oldest Rheem I ever replaced was 28 years old but that said for most of those 28 years there was only one person living in the house.
Glass lined steel cylinder HWS of all brands typically last around 12 years with a family of 4 - 6 people.

I'm not a fan of heat pump HWS because of their high initial set up cost, poor reliability and high repair/replacement costs, however, I have installed a few Hydrotherm heat pump HWS. Two of these were for my brother's house back in 2016 and they have run faultlessly to date.
I was so impressed with the Hydrotherm I have actually recommended and installed them for two of my clients who were set on having a heat pump HWS and were contemplating other well know aussie brands. Brands that I have seen fail and they were only 5 years old.

The Hydrotherm heat pumps seem to be one of the few products coming out of China that are actually good quality and they have a stainless steel storage tank. Disclaimer: I am not associated with Hydrotherm HWS in any way, shape or form.
I think my previous hot water tank lasted about 14 years IIRC which was a pretty good innings for a tank that never had its anode changed. I didn’t realise that they had anodes that required replacement until I started researching the replacement after the old tank started leaking.

I think a heat pump system is probably a waste of money TBH as you’d be better off putting that money into solar panels on your roof.

If you’ve already maxed out your solar panels then your making enough power to run a standard heating element tank anyway making the heat pump superfluous, especially with the shitty solar feed in tariffs you get now. Your better off consuming all your excess power onsite than going for hyper efficient appliances to export that power to the grid.
 

afstruct

Donating Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2015
Messages
1,688
Reaction score
2,750
Points
113
Location
Warners Bay
Members Ride
HSV VS Maloo , 2002 Monaro
I think my previous hot water tank lasted about 14 years IIRC which was a pretty good innings for a tank that never had its anode changed. I didn’t realise that they had anodes that required replacement until I started researching the replacement after the old tank started leaking.

I think a heat pump system is probably a waste of money TBH as you’d be better off putting that money into solar panels on your roof.

If you’ve already maxed out your solar panels then your making enough power to run a standard heating element tank anyway making the heat pump superfluous, especially with the shitty solar feed in tariffs you get now. Your better off consuming all your excess power onsite than going for hyper efficient appliances to export that power to the grid.

My father was a plumber/gasfitter and I worked for him for the first year out of school before I got the apprenticeship I wanted.
So knew about the anode.
When he and mum sold the family home and moved up to near me ( they were retired ) they were in the process of buying a place when the HWS died . The owners payed for the amount of a new electric replacement so dad threw in the extra and got a heat pump HWS.
He did regret that , it had a few reliability issues.
 

losh1971

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
22,772
Reaction score
22,687
Points
113
Location
North Tas
Members Ride
VE Series I SS Ute
Fortunately the Apricus I installed had a stainless tank. The slightly cheaper Apricus has a glass lined tank so don't rust.
 

DavesSV6Tonner

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2019
Messages
651
Reaction score
1,547
Points
93
Location
Australia
Members Ride
VZ S V6 Cab & Chassis
Fortunately the Apricus I installed had a stainless tank. The slightly cheaper Apricus has a glass lined tank so don't rust.
The 'glass' lining is vitreous enamel which is baked on at high temperature.
 

Fu Manchu

We’ll get together. Have a few laughs.
Joined
Mar 18, 2006
Messages
18,105
Reaction score
22,924
Points
113
Location
WA.
Members Ride
VZ Crewman, VZ Cross 8, & ya mum.
We went from gas storage to solar storage and gas instantaneous boosted.

We have a small block and space is a premium. Would love to use a heat pump storage unit but space.

Having the old storage system gone was a huge relief and the extra space we got back was welcome.

Lots of room for solar panels and solar hotwater system. Also still have room to expand solar power generation when we invest in a battery.

Our gas usage dropped dramatically using instantaneous and solar together.

We don’t get power bills.
 

Dylan kingswood

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2017
Messages
275
Reaction score
501
Points
93
Age
33
Location
Hobart
Members Ride
2011 s2 Ve ss
All good to replace anodes but still have issues with dip tubes cracking and failing, the enamel in the last 10 years is poor, I've watched over the last 15 years cylinders lasting 30plus years to struggling to get ten ,I've replaced 4 year old cylinders that had rusted out under warranty.
House I'm in now during Reno's I pulled out a going 1982 rheem 250 that bit sludgey on the bottom when I drained it but was running clear and hot with no leaks.
 

J_D 2.0

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2020
Messages
2,979
Reaction score
7,036
Points
113
Location
Ipswich
Members Ride
2009 VE SSV M6 on LPG and 2022 Kawasaki Z650L
All good to replace anodes but still have issues with dip tubes cracking and failing, the enamel in the last 10 years is poor, I've watched over the last 15 years cylinders lasting 30plus years to struggling to get ten ,I've replaced 4 year old cylinders that had rusted out under warranty.
House I'm in now during Reno's I pulled out a going 1982 rheem 250 that bit sludgey on the bottom when I drained it but was running clear and hot with no leaks.
Don’t make ‘em like they used to.
 

chrisp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
1,893
Reaction score
5,130
Points
113
Location
Melbourne Victoria
Members Ride
VF2 MY16 SS Redline Sportwagon
This thread has been thought provoking. @J_D 2.0 had me thinking - regarding the value of a heat pump vs resistive heating hot water system.

I decided to run some numbers…

The web informs me that the average hot water usage is 76 L per person per day, and that the average household has 2.6 people. So, I thought I’d crunch some numbers to see where they land. (I’ll try and add sufficient detail to the calculations so anyone can customise the results to their circumstances)…

So, to heat 197.6 lt (2.6 people x 76 L) of water from 15C to 65C (50 degree rise) will take 41.36 MJ (ignoring all losses) per day. This equates to 11.5 kWh (in electricity usage).

Picking a rough typical cost, a kWh of electricity cost about $0.25 (but check your electricity bill for your particular rate). So, the daily cost of heating the hot water (sans losses) is $2.87 per day, or $1,050 per year using a ‘resistive heating’ hot water system (sans losses).

Heat pumps are quoted and something like 5x efficient - i.e. they produce about 5 or 6 times the heat energy that they consume by running the ‘pump’ to extract heat from the surrounding air. I’m going to assume that this is a ‘headline figure’ that is only achieved in ideal conditions, so for everyday circumstances I’m going to assume a factor of 4x (i.e. drawing 1 kW from the mains results in 4 kW of water heating).

Assuming a 4x factor, a heat-pump will heat the same quantity of water for $262 per year ($1050 / 4), or $210 per year if you use a factor of 5x (Reclaim claim x5 on their website).

So a heat pump will save the ‘average household’ $788 per year (using chrisp efficiency factor) or $840 per year (using Reclaim’s efficiency factor). My most recent quote for a Reclaim heat pump was $5,400 installed (up about $1,000 for 2 years ago!), so a heat pump would pay itself off in about 7 years (full cost), or if I assume that an equivalent replacement for the existing hot water system is $2,000 (like for like) then the heat-pump premium is $3,400 ($5,400 - $2,000), the payback period is 4.3 years ($3,400 / $788). So, as long as the heat pump lasts at least 4.3 years, I’m ahead! And every year beyond that I save $788 per year.

The above assumes that all the electricity is purchased from the grid. If one has solar panels (PV) then the calculation is more complex. But to get a bit of a handle on it, it is relatively easy to calculate the ‘worst case’ figures. If one manages to ‘self consume’ all the PV production needed to produce the hot water, the electricity ‘cost’ is the loss of potential income from selling that PV back to the grid. Assuming the present Victorian minimum FiT of $0.067 per kWh, using resistive hot water would ‘cost’ $281 per year (using the same assumptions above), but rather it is a loss of income of $281 per year than a true cost. Using a heat-pump instead would ‘cost’ $70 per year (using chrisp efficiency factors) or $56 per year (using Reclaim’s factor). So, the savings are relatively small reflecting the relatively low cost of (locally generated) PV energy. So, this does support @J_D 2.0 ’s claim that heat-pumps may not be good value if there is an abundance of local PV generation.

To put this in to some sort of perspective or framework, and assuming a PV generation factor of 3.66 (Melbourne 3000 postcode), a PV system of 3.14 kW would be required to heat the hot water (sans all losses). So, 3.14 kW (about 10 panels) of the installed PV system would be needed to support a resistive hot water system, whereas the heat-pump would need 1/4 or 1/5 of that (0.78 kW to 0.63 kW - about 3 to 2 PV panels).

In reality, the real-world figure will fall somewhere between the two calculations above.
 

DavesSV6Tonner

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2019
Messages
651
Reaction score
1,547
Points
93
Location
Australia
Members Ride
VZ S V6 Cab & Chassis
All good to replace anodes but still have issues with dip tubes cracking and failing, the enamel in the last 10 years is poor, I've watched over the last 15 years cylinders lasting 30plus years to struggling to get ten ,I've replaced 4 year old cylinders that had rusted out under warranty.
House I'm in now during Reno's I pulled out a going 1982 rheem 250 that bit sludgey on the bottom when I drained it but was running clear and hot with no leaks.
I started plumbing 45 years ago and the Rheem and Dux/Hardie Dux glass lined steel cylinder hot water systems back then only had an average life span of 12 years if the annode wasn't replaced.

I don't believe there is any difference in the quality of the vitreous enamel linings used today compared to 30 years ago.
Vitreous enamel is vitreous enamel, perhaps production methods have improved such that the manufacturers can apply thinner coatings?
I personally don't see a cracked dip tube being detrimental to the lifespan of the HWS but I will confess that I have never checked any old glass lined steel mains pressure storage HWS for a cracked dip tube.

The youngest HWS that I have ever replaced was a Dux Airoheat 250 Heat pump system.
It was only 5 years old and I told the client they should be able to get some pro rata warranty on the failed storage tank.
The client wasn't interested, just get rid of it was the instruction. Apparently the electronic control module had already been replaced twice under warranty and Dux tried all sorts of excuses to wiggle their way out of the 2nd replacement so the client had had enough.

So I installed a 250 litre 3.6kw Rheem.
 
Top