Bilstein B8's on King Ultra Lows? Advice please!

[ruredi]

Hey guys,

Car:2012 VE SS V Wagon. 20" wheels

In the process of fitting new wheels and suspension. I am trying to achieve that semi aggressive / stanced / low look however I am a firm believer in doing things right the first time and I will compromise on not going to extremes in lieu of practicality, drive ability, safety etc - eg. I refuse to have stretched tyres.

At the moment, the car has Pedders Sportsryder Springs with standard struts / shocks.

HTG atm is 370mm front, 350mm rear.

After doing some heavy research, I had decided to go with Bilstein B8's and King Super Lows as the general consensus was that these would out perform any sub $3k coil over kit.

Right before getting them installed, I double checked what heights the car would sit at and realised that it would actually raise the rear 15mm (365mm) and the front would stay the same as it is now (370mm).

I certainly don't want the car any higher than it is now and in fact, I wanted the car a tad lower. I want to close the arch gap. Guard level with top of tyre or few mm below (tucked) is ideal. Doing the measurements, it needs to come down to about 340mm HTG.

Car is currently sitting at 160mm off the ground and I do not have any scraping issues but I am very cautious how I approach obstacles. At 340mm HTG would put the car about 130mm off the ground. I am not sure if I would have scraping issues at this height but I would hate for it to scrape everywhere so opinions from people with cars at similar height is appreciated...

I then decided that I would probably need Ultra lows which would keep the rear exactly where it is now and drop the front 10mm.

However the place where I am looking to get it installed (Centreline Suspension) has advised that this is not a good idea as it will place too much stress on the Bilsteins having them operating at the higher end of their range.

Everyone on hear seems to recommend the Bilstein / King combo so my question to you is...is there a limit to how low I could go on the Bilsteins? Are Ultra Lows ok / safe? What would they ride like on the ultra lows? Will Ultra lows prematurely wear the Bilsteins?

I understand that the B8's lower up to 50mm and from my understanding the car stock is 400 and 410 so the Ultra lows would pretty much be bang on 50mm lower.

The bloke from the suspension shop has recommended BC Racing coil overs and has suggested that these will out perform the fixed combo at the height I am seeking. He has said he would prefer the Bilstein / King combo but he has based his advice on what I have told him regarding my desired ride height. Chris @ Centreline tells me he helped develop the BC racing coilovers for the Pontiac G8's and that they are made in the same factory as the Pedders Xtreme but are better due to having better spring rates etc. Also suggested they are better than TEIN. Price is $2,200 installed. The Bilstein / King is $1,660.

I certainly don't want to spend anymore than $2,200 and in fact I didn't really want to spend that much.

But now I'm having doubts about what to do. I don't want to put something inferior / cheap onto my car. And I'm also not sure I want to put up with scraping the **** out of everything.

However I don't want it any higher than it is now and in fact I would prefer it a bit lower but it doesn't seem that I can achieve this with the Bilstein / King Combo. At best, I can keep it pretty much where it is now by putting in Ultra Lows but I am not sure that this is suitable with the Bilsteins which would mean I would need to install Superlows and raise the car

But I understand I have to make a compromise somewhere and if it means I'll have a much better ride and a better performing product, I might consider not trying to get it so low by putting in coil overs and achieving the look but sacrificing everything else. Chris assures me it would not ride too harshly or like a pig.

What do you suggest?

Advice much appreciated.

FYI - The Ultra Low Part numbers for my car is KHFL-150SSSL and KHRL-152SSLHD. The super lows are KHFL-150SSL and KHRL-152SLHD.

 

[Foggsy]

I can see you have a wagon which sit lower in the rear so blokes usually run KHRL152SLHD's in the rear. I have those exact springs in the rear of my sedan with a towbar and full size spare and the HTG measurement is 345-350mm on mine so I'd imagine in a wagon may sit even lower.

On the front I run KHFL150SSLHD and the HTG measurement is 365-370mm.

I hope this can help you in some way in relation to heights.

As for the shocks, I run Koni adjustables and love them but I don't know if say "ultralows" would get them out of their working range comfort zone. I do remember the shop telling me with koni's you can go pretty low and they work fine.

In respect of Coilovers - XYZ at the brand that go the lowest and are designed to work in that range I believe. I've only heard good things but I have never ridden in one equipped so that's someone else's opinion. They are 30 point adjustable though so surely one must be able to have them as soft or as firm as one's taste desires.

Good luck mate, hope you end up with what you want first time.

 

[ruredi]

Super pissed off...!

Have encountered a bit of an issue with my recent purchase of a set of springs.

Previously HTG measurements were as follows. 20 inch wheels from factory:

Front: 370mm
Rear: 350mm

I sought plenty of advice from Suspension specialist and King Springs themselves regarding ride heights etc.

My main concern was getting the front lower and had decided on a full set of Ultra lows. I certainly did NOT want the car any higher!

I was advised by said suspension specialist and King that "Ultra Lows" in the front would not be ideal as the new struts would be working at their upper limits and would shorten the life of same. I contemplated long and hard (not really wanting to go coilovers) and decided that I would compromise and settle for 370 / 350 height.

I ordered a set of KHFL-150SSL (Super Low) and KHRL-152SSLD (Ultra Low). The quoted HTG measurements are 370mm and 350mm.

Had them installed pairing them with a set of Bilstein B8 Short Travel Shocks. Also installed a new set of strut top mounts and bearings from Superpor - SPF1590AK

Upon my arrival at the shop to pickup the car, I was disappointed to notice that the front of the car was sitting VERY VERY high in the front! It instantly appeared to me to be higher than STOCK height!

The rear of the car is fine and sits perfectly!

I spoke to suspension dude and he confirmed that the car was 15mm higher in the front than before and 5mm lower in the rear. The new HTG measurements are:

Front: 395mm
Rear: 345mm

The car is actually 25mm higher than before in the front!

The stock height in the front according King website is 390mm so these Super Lows are actually 5mm higher than stock! I plead my case to the shop owner and at first he didn't believe what I was telling him and tried to convinve me it was the new strut tops.

There happened to have a stock SV6 Wagon in the shop and I asked him to measure it. He measured the front HTG to be 400mm!! 5mm different to mine with the Super Lows in it and mine is a V8.

I am aware that sometimes new springs need to settle but this is crazy. The shop owner then came around and was also puzzled as the only thing that really bears the height of the car is the springs. We tried to figure out where the gain in height has come from. We compared the old strut mounts to the new and surprisingly, the old ones were not worn enough to justify the gain in height.

I don't know if the springs have been labeled incorrectly or there is some other issue but I was referred to King for advice. King have since contacted the shop and offered support to rectify and help identify the issue. King stated they have never had my car sit that high with these springs so something is obviously up!

On the drive home, I was even further disappointed to realise that the ride quality was rubbish!!! I have seen nothing but overwhelming opinion that the Bilstein / King Combo will out perform any coilover under $3-3.5k. Well the ride was better before with shagged shocks and pedders! Something is just not right! These Bilsteins were supposed to be all the rave!

It takes big progressive bumps and dips nicely however anything sharp or sudden and it feels like the car is smashing into them! if there are a few creases consecutively in the road, it sounds like a horse galloping or that I'm driving across tram tracks. It also feels very loose in the front end as the shockers go up and down. I've also heard these harsh crashing noises in the rear on occasion! It's as if the shockers can't rebound quick enough!

I don't know if this is correlated to the unusual height of the front of the car.

I've since spoken with the suspension specialist and advised him what is going on. The car is going back Wednesday and I'm told he will take it all apart and start again.

If no explanation can be provided and the heights as quoted in the King catalogue can't be guaranteed, then I'd be more inclined to seek a refund and place the Pedders springs back into the car. I understand that the HTG are an approximation but there should not be this much of a difference.

Does anything think that the new Superpro Polylast strut tops could be causing this issue? I'm now thinking of using a Pedders Heavy Duty Rubber?

 

[greenacc]

You have installed a very stiff combination there ruredi so by your description it's riding exactly how I would expect it.
B8's are a stiff shock for performance driving, the lowered Springs are the same and the urethane strut tops are harder than rubber to improve steering response and increase road feel. Unfortunately for you they will also increase the banging over sharp bumps.
Sports suspension is not comfortable on rough roads.

 

[ruredi]

I'm going to have to disagree with you man. I was take for a spin in GM motorsports GMM350 (VF clubsport). Had their coilover package installed which I believe we're made by shockworks.

It drove very nice. Sporty yes. harsh, loud and banging...no. Was actually quite comfortable when driven sedately. Same can't be said for my current setup.

So much for them out performing coilovers.

I'm confident something isn't quite right with the setup. Shouldn't be crashing into bumps like this and sound and feel like the whole assembly is moving and hitting the top of the shock mount

 

[greenacc]

I know what your saying, I get that same banging if I hit a harsh bump ar the wrong angle and I've just got boge gas shocks and standard springs under my nolathane strut tops.
Have a read of the other new thread in this VE forum on the same issue, and do a search on all the other threads with people complaining about harshness from urethane strut tops.
It all comes down to the stiffness of your whole setup and yours is very stiff. No doubt you've got quite low profile tyres as well?
For me the few bangs are worth it for the steering response and firmness the poly tops give me but my setup is not as stiff as yours so for you maybe go back to a good rubber top which will cushion bumps much better.

 

[ruredi]

I know what your saying, I get that same banging if I hit a harsh bump ar the wrong angle and I've just got boge gas shocks and standard springs under my nolathane strut tops.
Have a read of the other new thread in this VE forum on the same issue, and do a search on all the other threads with people complaining about harshness from urethane strut tops.
It all comes down to the stiffness of your whole setup and yours is very stiff. No doubt you've got quite low profile tyres as well?
For me the few bangs are worth it for the steering response and firmness the poly tops give me but my setup is not as stiff as yours so for you maybe go back to a good rubber top which will cushion bumps much better.

Running 245/35 tyres.

Yeah think I'm definitely going back to rubber if this is what is causing it! Still doesn't explain the height issue!

 

[mitchy_]

the springs will settle over time, the ultra lows on the rear of my wagon dropped a good 10-15mm over a couple of weeks.

i had XYZ coilovers in the front of my wagon, as ultralow fronts on a V6 dont match the ultralow rears (at the time they didn't anyway, they now have a new lower spring to suit), and they had polyurethane strut tops.. i couldn't tell you if it was only cause by them, but the ride was harsh and gave the exact feeling you explained. 'crashed' over bumps, even at low speeds and felt like the front suspension was rattling around.
i've since gone back to king springs with the original struts and new factory strut tops and it drives like a dream again.

 

[ruredi]

Yeah I'll be ####in the SuperPro things off! Rubbish!

 

[ruredi]

Anyone used the pedders heavy duty rubber? Still give factory ride?