JC Political Thread - For All Things Political Part 2

[Crisis63]

So tell me, how many of the people who come in by plane dump all identification before leaving the plane?

No idea. How many outstay their visas and are thereby “illegal”?

When people come by plane we KNOW who they are and where they have come from, they can be identified.

Are you saying their identification can’t be falsified?

The people who pay so much money to enter illegally we know nothing about as they are advised to dump all forms of ID.

How many boat people are found to be not who they claim?

Does this make it right? Not at all, it does help immigration grant refugee status much quicker. That said, I would really like to know how many refugees travel by plane and demand asylum here, my guess is it would be more financial immigrants as genuine refugees are funded byt the taxpayer to fly here once approved.

Your entitled to guess I suppose.

Here is some food for thought…


Most bogus asylum-seekers are from China, with smaller numbers coming from India and other south-east Asian countries. They enter Australia on valid visas which have usually been obtained on the basis of false information or fraudulent documentation.

They obtain what is known disparagingly within the Department of Immigration as the "$30 work visa" ($30 being the cost of lodging an application for refugee status). They do this with the assistance of unscrupulous migration agents, sometimes unidentified, who recycle claims that have previously been successful. Claims of persecution for religious beliefs and practices (whether Catholic, other Christian or "underground" Christian) and adherence to Falun Gong are favourite themes.

There is no doubt that persecution exists in China as defined under the UN Convention on Refugees. However, it is mainly persecution on political grounds, where the Chinese government perceives a threat to its authority from an individual exposing a government-related scandal or disseminating information that is viewed as anti-government.

Religious persecution in China is limited. Jehovah's Witnesses are banned from proselytising and a small number of Catholic bishops who swear allegiance to the Vatican only, without also accepting Chinese governance in religious affairs, have been imprisoned. Their offence is seen as political rather than religious.

Christians in China are not persecuted according to the UN definition of persecution, that is, they do not experience serious harm or punishment enacted or condoned by the state on the basis of their religious beliefs. Under Chinese law, followers of Christianity and other major religions are free to practise their faith. Churches must be registered, and there are restrictions on where formal church services can be conducted. Huge numbers of people attend "house" or underground churches and there are sometimes clampdowns when these gatherings become too large. But Christianity is flourishing in China, where some 40 million people attend registered Christian churches and tens of millions more attend the underground churches.

They can turn back the boats, but it's still plane sailing
Doing the right thing can end boats hysteria
'Plane people' eclipse illegal boat arrivals

Boat people are an emotive political football. Both sides play and both are guilty if insincerity when they claim they really care about the people themselves.

 

[Reaper]

Did the planes?

What about the planes?? Every person who enters Australia via an airport will have a visa or some sort. To obtain an entry visa into Australia their identity will be established and various checks of background are conducted. This does not happen with the boats and now is even less likely than before.

Reaper

 

[Crisis63]

What about the planes?? Every person who enters Australia via an airport will have a visa or some sort. To obtain an entry visa into Australia their identity will be established and various checks of background are conducted. This does not happen with the boats and now is even less likely than before.

Reaper

See above.

 

[DAKSTER]

Like you or I, this African woman will have her own opinions. Everyone has em.

Interesting though, most of the article is the reporters interpretation.. the only direct quote from the African woman


"In Africa we would all like to come, but we don't have a boat -- we have to line up," Ms Nyaret said. "Even now it's hard to find housing -- when you turn up to the inspection there's always a huge line."

Now without the benefit of interpretation from the totally unbiased reporter from the Australian (oops an oxymoron ), all shes doing is complaining about the line in Africa to get here, and the lines shes waiting in for private rental housing now that shes here.

If I were fighting for survival I would be over the moon to have just got here. Perhaps she wasn't as desperately in need as some, which would make her less deserving not more, if you want to look at it in that way.

Its the words of just one woman, and only part of what she said so it could be totally out of context. The implication also is that if she could have got on a boat she would have.

There are absolutely no direct quotes from her regarding 'fearing an influx of boatpeople'. These are the reporters words, not hers. If she had said such a thing, that quote would have been there. The 'oh bugger I keep having to wait in line' quote is the best (and only !) thing the reporter could pick out from an entire interview to support the article she wanted to write.

 

[Reaper]

See above.

The discussion is about un-authorized arrivals by people who have gone out of their way to disguise their identity or origin. Plane arrivals must at least have a passport and visa of some description to enter the country. There is an acknowledged problem of visa over stayers however the department of immigration are pretty pro-active when it comes to deporting these people when their location is known (have seen it first hand at a former work place). I don't see the relationship between the two.

Reaper

 

[DAKSTER]

The discussion is about un-authorized arrivals by people who have gone out of their way to disguise their identity or origin. Plane arrivals must at least have a passport and visa of some description to enter the country. There is an acknowledged problem of visa over stayers however the department of immigration are pretty pro-active when it comes to deporting these people when their location is known (have seen it first hand at a former work place). I don't see the relationship between the two.

Reaper

When did it become a discussion about people hiding their identity or origin? I thought it was a discussion about people seeking to jump the queue and live here without going through the 'normal' processes?

There are estimated to be about 58,000 overstayers in Australia - visitors who have arrived on a legitimate visa, but failed to depart again when that visa ran out. In the last financial year the immigration department only managed to track down 2500 of these.

What that says to me is 58,000 people could afford a plane ticket here, and want to stay, but didn't want to go through the immigration process - and the 'proactive' immigration department only found 2500 of them.

How many illegals (even including those who are now legal) currently in this country arrived by boat?

And incidentally.. why do you suppose they destroyed their documents? On advice from the people bringing them to our shores... if they had been given better advice I am sure they would have behaved differently. Remember most of them are eventually found to be genuine anyway.

 

[DAKSTER]

Just another little titbit for ya.

Joel Barlow, the NZ national who just stole 16 million bucks from QLD health, had a record for fraud in NZ. Our visa system never picked this up, and he has been here for years.

Police Commissioner Bob Atkinson said allegations made about then Queensland Health employee Hohepa Morehu-Barlow, also known as Joel Barlow, were last year sent to the Crime and Misconduct Commission, which referred them back to Queensland Health.

Mr Atkinson said police were aware of the allegations and could have made enquiries of New Zealand authorities, but did not.

Mr Atkinson also confirmed yesterday Mr Barlow was apprehended by a security guard (at his luxury apartment) at New Farm yesterday morning before police were contacted, saying officers were patrolling the area but did not have it under constant surveillance.

Says a lot about the whole system doesn't it? Regardless of which side of the fence you sit on. Efficient - NOT.

 

[monkeys437]

And incidentally.. why do you suppose they destroyed their documents? On advice from the people bringing them to our shores... if they had been given better advice I am sure they would have behaved differently. Remember most of them are eventually found to be genuine anyway.

If they didn't destroy their papers they would be found to be "genuine" much faster and save our system a whole lot of time and cash and we could start processing the millions in refugee camps who dont have $10k USD to spend on a boat trip.

I think if someone destroys their papers, there's a fair chance they're hiding something. My family still have the ID and papers they brought on the boat over from Europe in the 1950s. They guarded them with their life because it was the only way to prove who they were. Why would these people would destroy their most valuable possession before coming to a new country?

 

[Crisis63]

If they didn't destroy their papers they would be found to be "genuine" much faster and save our system a whole lot of time and cash and we could start processing the millions in refugee camps who dont have $10k USD to spend on a boat trip.

I think if someone destroys their papers, there's a fair chance they're hiding something. My family still have the ID and papers they brought on the boat over from Europe in the 1950s. They guarded them with their life because it was the only way to prove who they were. Why would these people would destroy their most valuable possession before coming to a new country?

Well firstly it is an assumption that they “destroy their documents”.They may not have had an opportunity to get them, they may not know what documents they need or in fact if they need any at all. There is a presumption by the antagonists that all of these people have identical agendas, backgrounds and circumstances and they all behave in exactly the same way.

Makes it easy for them to keep up.

Some more interesting reading.

Acceptance rates (the proportion of applicants granted refugee status), vary considerably according to the country or region of the applicant. Applicants from Indonesia, the PRC, and Sri Lanka represented a significant proportion (40 per cent) of all protection visa applicants in 1998-99. A significant number also came from other countries in our region, including the Philippines. Acceptance rates in 1998-99 at the initial departmental decision stage were less than 1 per cent for nationals of Indonesia and the PRC,(13) virtually nil for the Philippines, and 18 per cent for Sri Lanka. The highest approval rates were for applicants from Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan, 70-80 per cent at the initial stage, and over 90 per cent following review by the independent appeal body, the Refugee Review Tribunal.
Boat People, Illegal Migration and Asylum Seekers: in Perspective (Current Issues Brief 13 1999-2000)

 

[Crisis63]

The discussion is about un-authorized arrivals by people who have gone out of their way to disguise their identity or origin. Plane arrivals must at least have a passport and visa of some description to enter the country. There is an acknowledged problem of visa over stayers however the department of immigration are pretty pro-active when it comes to deporting these people when their location is known (have seen it first hand at a former work place). I don't see the relationship between the two.

Reaper

This comment was made and refuted with factual evidence.-

"You do realise by the immigration departments own admission that most boat people coming to Australia are not refugees right? They are illegal immigrants and mainly financial illegals"

You commented that the boats stopped. Irrelevant to actual point of whether they were legitimate refugees or not. They may well have stopped because it got too hard to come. After all that was the point of the policy.

I asked if the planes stopped as well as this appears to be the way the largest percentage of illegal immigrants end up here.

For some reason you believe that documentation cannot possibly falsified and by the mere production of paperwork the people entering the country by air must all be legit.
It appears they are not. It also appears they are a far greater problem. If illegal immigrants on our soil are the issue as opposed to how they got here I believe I am on topic.