JC Political Thread - For All Things Political Part 2

[DAKSTER]

Well firstly it is an assumption that they “destroy their documents”.They may not have had an opportunity to get them, they may not know what documents they need or in fact if they need any at all. There is a presumption by the antagonists that all of these people have identical agendas, backgrounds and circumstances and they all behave in exactly the same way.

In fact, its entirely possible that they have never had any kind of identifying documents in their possession in their life. Even in this country, many aboriginal people have little or no identifying documentation, or even know exactly what their birthdate is. Aboriginals of 50 or older were often born outside the system, and introduced to the system months later, on the next contact with the authorities. The only documentation many of these people have is Centrelink stuff, and they have gotten that without the standard 100 points by having prominent peers vouch for them. It still happens, and there is a system to provide for it.

In many other countries, with no social security system like we have, many people live their lives completely unidentified. No birth certificate, no bank balance, no credit history or criminal history, no centrelink card. These things just aren't useful when you are living at subsistence level.

In the case of those who DID destroy documentation, its possible or even likely that they have done so at the behest of their 'guides', and they have no idea they are doing themselves a disservice.

People keep throwing around the 10k figure as the price of a ticket on one of these boats. Where does that figure come from? And have any of you considered.. sometimes entire generations of a family will pool their resources to send a young man to another country, in the hope that he will do well and will be able to help the rest of the family in some way.

This isn't new, its been happening since time began. Being on a boat doesn't make them rich. It makes them desperate. I defy any one of you to take the journey they are taking for purely economic reasons. Far from paying to be on one of those boats, you couldn't pay me enough to get on one.

 

[Darren_L]

the world's population is growing exponentially every year and it's no secret that our planet's resources can't continue to support this ever growing population.
The developed world plays a part in that with medical advances over the years we are living longer, however in Australia at the very least, I believe the number of children couples have has been reduced over the last 20 years or so, whereas the average family size in some of the massively overpopulated third world countries seems to be rising.....

the ideal solution is of course as suggested, for these countries is forced contraception, but in reality how does a government enforce something like this (in a humane manner). Ideally the number of children a woman could give birth to would be capped. But the governing of these countries is almost non-existant, there is no accurate recording system of the population, let alone any sort of tracking system as to who has had how many children. And then if people disregarded the birth laws and continued to punch out 10 kids, what could the govt do ? It just wouldn't work...

Maybe contraception should be something that is included when our nations donate to these countries. And some sort of attempt to educate the people as to how to use it, and how important it is to use it.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I often wonder how these people can bring children into the world, knowing that that their children are going to be raised in poverty, and that their chances of survival are slim at best. It's cruelty on their part. I live in a country where the taxpayer will support my children if I can't. Despite this, when was living on crap money for many years, I used protection to ensure I didn't have children, because I knew I couldn't support them myself and I didn't want the taxpayer taking the burden for my offspring. In contrast, people living in third world countries know well, that there is no welfare system that will support their children, yet they still continue to punch them out. In that way, I really don't have a lot of sympathy for them. Maybe I simply don't understand, I don't know, but it doesn't make sense to me...

As for a solution to the boat people arriving illegally in Australia, I really can't think of a humane solution. Maybe it's a case of being cruel to be kind for a while to get the message across. I honestly don't know.... One thing is for sure, if these people arrive illegally on our shores, they need to be prepared for detention. And if they start burning down/destroying the accomodation we have provided for them, then don't expect any sympathy from me. Let them live in their own ****.

 

[Rufys]

I have no problem with as many people coming to Australia as possible, as long as anyone that comes to Australia illegally is ENTIRELY funded and supported from the pockets of the naive and ill-informed Labor drones like Crisis and Dakster.

 

[DAKSTER]

I have no problem with as many people coming to Australia as possible, as long as anyone that comes to Australia illegally is ENTIRELY funded and supported from the pockets of the naive and ill-informed Labor drones like Crisis and Dakster.

You need to be careful throwing insults. Most of what you say is simply echoing what other people say. I may disagree with people like Reaper and Minux, but I respect them for the intelligent debate they offer. You are merely an ill informed sycophant, echoing the views of others without knowing why.

You remind of me of the kid standing behind the schoolyard bully shouting 'yeah - like he said..'

oh.. and who says I am a labour supporter? Never have been.. I support policies not parties.

 

[minux]

Cookies must be enabled | The Australian

Brilliant to see business standing up to these thugs who threaten to shut down business. Anyone would think we had gone back to the future.

Union officials said the company had unsuccessfully applied to Fair Work Australia to end the bans, which were legal and supported by the workforce.

Sounds to me like the FWA is just an extension of the unions, at no time have they shown any support for the companies that pay these idiots to have a job. Surely people have realised that companies no longer fear unions and will in fact do what is needed to continue working to make money?

Anyway onto something else:
http://www.news.com.au/business/aus...gle-to-find-jobs/story-e6frfm1i-1226220884213

I thought to myself before opening this, well Arts degrees etc seem to be common theme for the average jo thinking they are hip going to uni no doubt thats why there is placement issues.

Visual and performing arts least successful

Seems university has become a think tank for stupid courses that never really required university, add into this nursing, teaching etc...just go back to specialised education and allow jobs like nursing and teaching to go back to in house education and short courses.

 

[Reaper]

Just another little titbit for ya.

Joel Barlow, the NZ national who just stole 16 million bucks from QLD health, had a record for fraud in NZ. Our visa system never picked this up, and he has been here for years.

If he arrived before 1994 then he didn't need a visa. Since then a NZ citizen just needs to front to Australia with a passport and a visa is more or less automatically granted on the spot. It could be denied on character grounds but I'm not sure where the line is drawn there.

Police Commissioner Bob Atkinson said allegations made about then Queensland Health employee Hohepa Morehu-Barlow, also known as Joel Barlow, were last year sent to the Crime and Misconduct Commission, which referred them back to Queensland Health.

Mr Atkinson said police were aware of the allegations and could have made enquiries of New Zealand authorities, but did not.

Mr Atkinson also confirmed yesterday Mr Barlow was apprehended by a security guard (at his luxury apartment) at New Farm yesterday morning before police were contacted, saying officers were patrolling the area but did not have it under constant surveillance.

Says a lot about the whole system doesn't it? Regardless of which side of the fence you sit on. Efficient - NOT.

I do wonder how he managed to get away with it for so long. The stupid thing is that these things are only ever discovered by mistake.

Reaper

 

[Reaper]

Well firstly it is an assumption that they “destroy their documents”.

It's pretty widely accepted by all sides that such practices are routine.

This comment was made and refuted with factual evidence.-

"You do realise by the immigration departments own admission that most boat people coming to Australia are not refugees right? They are illegal immigrants and mainly financial illegals"

You commented that the boats stopped. Irrelevant to actual point of whether they were legitimate refugees or not. They may well have stopped because it got too hard to come. After all that was the point of the policy.

I asked if the planes stopped as well as this appears to be the way the largest percentage of illegal immigrants end up here.

For some reason you believe that documentation cannot possibly falsified and by the mere production of paperwork the people entering the country by air must all be legit.

Of course documentation can be forged but at least there is some checking and procedure involved. No argument that the process has significant opportunities for improvement. One thing that is rarely published is how many people are refused entry visa to Australia.

It appears they are not. It also appears they are a far greater problem. If illegal immigrants on our soil are the issue as opposed to how they got here I believe I am on topic.

When it comes down to it, however they arrived, I am fine with immediate deportation of any person in Australia without a visa. I strongly support the principal that Australia should decide who enters our country and not some 2 bit people smuggler overseas who wants to make a quick rouble (or whatever it is)

Reaper

 

[Crisis63]

People keep throwing around the 10k figure as the price of a ticket on one of these boats. Where does that figure come from?

Most likely presumed, assumed or imagined. Like most of the so called “facts” about this issue.

 

[Crisis63]

Maybe contraception should be something that is included when our nations donate to these countries. And some sort of attempt to educate the people as to how to use it, and how important it is to use it.

You can try. But their countries leaders may well be doing that very thing anyway. The problem is that these solutions presume that these countries are set up the same way as ours. How do you educate people who live in outlying areas with no running water let alone electricity? I’m sure they don’t have newspapers delivered either. You could spend a lot of resources trying to get this “education” to people who may ot may not bother reading it or adhering to it. They may be more interested in there next mouthful of polluted water or mouldy rice.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I often wonder how these people can bring children into the world, knowing that that their children are going to be raised in poverty, and that their chances of survival are slim at best. It's cruelty on their part.

Yes it is and I don’t understand either. We are both missing something. Perhaps it is the human instinct to procreate.

 

[Crisis63]

You need to be careful throwing insults. Most of what you say is simply echoing what other people say. I may disagree with people like Reaper and Minux, but I respect them for the intelligent debate they offer. You are merely an ill informed sycophant, echoing the views of others without knowing why.

You remind of me of the kid standing behind the schoolyard bully shouting 'yeah - like he said..'

oh.. and who says I am a labour supporter? Never have been.. I support policies not parties.

Wow, I was going to write a similar thing. Especially the part about others being able to engage in reasonable discussion no matter how opposed their opinions may be.
I have thus far managed to mostly ignore those posts as the rubbish they are though and will try to continue along those lines.