Not another fukn battery question….

[Deuce]

The problem with lithium start batteries in ICE cars is that todays smart alternators assume it’s a sealed calcium lead acid battery and has a charging regime optimised for that technology.

Lithium batteries, there are a number of variances of such, just don’t play well with vehicle alternators and their smart charge algorithm.

Now if only the vehicle battery type could be specified via diag tool during its replacement and the smart alternator algorithm could then choose the appropriate strategy for the battery type that’s actually installed, a silly expensive lithium battery may last longer than a few years.

When lithium batteries came out as a genuine parts for Harley-Davidson, they were only listed to fit the later models (2012-newer from memory) where as the AGM lead/acid equivalent they replaced was listed for 96-newer models.

Why was that?
Simple - different stator outputs (alternator equiv on a bike). Lithium batteries require a higher input voltage to receive the charge effectively.

 

[Skylarking]

When lithium batteries came out as a genuine parts for Harley-Davidson, they were only listed to fit the later models (2012-newer from memory) where as the AGM lead/acid equivalent they replaced was listed for 96-newer models.

Why was that?
Simple - different stator outputs (alternator equiv on a bike). Lithium batteries require a higher input voltage to receive the charge effectively.

Yeah, don’t know what HD has done wrt charge logic though I do remember some complaints on the forum around HD lithium batteries and the fact that they were being superseded and replaced with Ca-Pb acid batteries because the Li-Ion stuff just didn’t live long enough… but not sure.

The following goes into charge logic for Li-Ion batteries (which would have 3 cells for 12V = nominal 12.3V charge voltage)

BU-409: Charging Lithium-ion

BU meta description needed...

batteryuniversity.com

and llead acid batteries (which would have 6 cells for 12V = nominal 13.8V charge voltage)

BU-403: Charging Lead Acid

BU meta description needed...

batteryuniversity.com

It’s that extra 1.5V charge voltage and any float charge mechanism seems to be what kill the Li-Ion batteries.

Obviously it’s more complex and I don’t fully understand it but if GM/H could be bothered with a BMC Li-Ion firmware update, I’m sure the vehicle could be made to work safely with a LI-Ion start battery but such a battery would still be stupid expensive

 

[stooge]

There is no need for li batteries in ice vehicles, i am sure the local battery vendors would love to make the sales but really a la/sla battery works the best.

the one nev posted has served me well in countless ve/vf vehicles and century has been my goto brand for the fleet for years and if i have to substitute then i get yuasa which is the same thing, this is normally for larger batteries in heavy vehicles.

 

[Smitty]

The problem with lithium start batteries in ICE cars is that todays smart alternators assume it’s a sealed calcium lead acid battery and has a charging regime optimised for that technology.

Lithium batteries, there are a number of variances of such, just don’t play well with vehicle alternators and their smart charge algorithm.

Now if only the vehicle battery type could be specified via diag tool during its replacement and the smart alternator algorithm could then choose the appropriate strategy for the battery type that’s actually installed, a silly expensive lithium battery may last longer than a few years.

... agree when it comes to cars
but that is not the case with bikes.. well certainly not a 2001 ZX12r!

 

[Skylarking]

There is no need for li batteries in ice vehicles, i am sure the local battery vendors would love to make the sales but really a la/sla battery works the best.

Ignoring cost, and propensity to imitate people in orange robes, Li-Ion batteries could be good for those who have garage queens or just don‘t drive a particular car much, but only if the vehicle charging system will support that tech.

And keeping a sealed calcium lead acid battery on a pulsed float charger still isn’t perfect so presumable an optimised Li-Ion setup will still last longer than a lead acid counterpart.

Could become a possibility as price of Li-Ion or solid state batteries comes down over th3 next decade.

 

[stooge]

Li-Ion batteries could be good for those who have garage queens or just don‘t drive a particular car much

personally if i had a modern vehicle that was a garage queen it would not be connected to a power source, it would be isolated.
the li battery will still discharge but at a much slower rate so for a storage option it could be a better solution but for normal use a li battery is just not needed.

 

[Skylarking]

personally if i had a modern vehicle that was a garage queen it would not be connected to a power source, it would be isolated.
the li battery will still discharge but at a much slower rate so for a storage option it could be a better solution but for normal use a li battery is just not needed.

If only the VF boot had a key under the Holden emblem it would be easier to disconnect and reconnect the battery disconnected when in the car is stored But for the fact there isn’t a key and it’s not a great idea to have the boot open, it becomes a little bit more of a PITA to have to pop the boot via the rear seat or jumper another battery to the engine bay just to open the boot So I’ve always got the car connected to the CTEK charger which I’m sure leaves me with some concerns

Such third world problems

 

[chrisp]

The complexity of trying to use a lithium battery is a non-lithium application is that lithium cells do not tolerate over-voltage at all. So, to make a battery using lithium cells, each cell requires a ‘cell regulator’ to monitor and control the voltage on that cell. The cell regulator are intended to do two things… firstly, it ‘clamps’ the cell voltage to an upper limit and ‘bypasses’ the current to maintain that cell at the voltage limit while the battery is charging. Secondly, it sends a message to the charger to say that it (the cell within the battery pack) is at its voltage limit. The charger then throttles back the charging current to a level that the cell regulator can handle.

If you can understand the above, then the penny should drop as to why EV are typically only ‘fast charged’ to 80%. They are fast-charged until one cell reports that it is at its voltage limit (and fully charged). There is no way the onboard cell regulators can handle the fast-charge currents so the fast charging ceases (but could be dropped back to standard charging). The ’80%’ is just a throwaway figure, it’s just that one cell has reached full charge. (It’s also why repeated fast charging isn’t recommended as the slow charging allows the pack to be ‘balanced’ - which doesn’t happen when fast charging).

In a nutshell, using a lithium battery in a lead-acid application is difficult and compromised. The battery and the charging system need to be matched (at the time of design).

 

[hademall]

In a nutshell, using a lithium battery in a lead-acid application is difficult and compromised. The battery and the charging system need to be matched (at the time of design).

This is the explanation that best suits me. Moving on.

 

[Skylarking]

In a nutshell, using a lithium battery in a lead-acid application is difficult and compromised. The battery and the charging system need to be matched (at the time of design).

Or matched at a later time by updating the charging algorithm within the BCM

something, something when pigs fly

PS: gotta say the other problem wit( some Li batteries that have internal BMS is they can disconnect the battery if the voltage drops too low.

I’ve heard some say that under such conditions, if it happens while the alternator is spinning then disconnecting yje battery can cause all sorts of problems related to voltage spikes. But I can’t see why the battery voltage would be too low in such cases unless there is a Li battery faul5 ot it’s internal BMS is faulty; then it could kill your car.