VT holden v6 lpg

[codeunknown]

Hi All...

Well i be thinking about LPG for the vt v6 3.8 series 1

I have done some maths...and I am wondering how it stacks up...
Firstly ..can I say no 2 drivers drive the same car the same way...and every car even if the same ..does not do the same...bearing in mind state of condition etc..

Now as everyone may be aware that the gov grant for lgp kicked off in 2009 in july...
And phase 1 will end in 30th june 2010 with the max rebate for used cars dropping from $1750 to $1500 bucks..

At present it seems the right time to get fitted for lpg ..the major wave has relaxed at all the LGP shops..
cause now they are having specials !

I so far rang a few and emailed a few..and some yet to reply..
the going rate for a vt v6 is $2500----$2600 so with max $1750 rebate...out of pocket..$750---850
do it post 30th june you loose $250 off your rebate...

I been told there are wreckers selling ..ex cabs lpg units and fitting for less than the going rate..and closer to $1800--2000 , so with rebate..your out pocket is $50----250
However in qld ....in bundaberg...and surrounds i not found a wrecker with a unit..for vt v6 sedan..
And no one here knows of anyone who will fit a used unit even if the tank is tested ok..

So any Qld persons or even nsw person know a place that sells 2nd hand lpg units for vt's and knows a fitter that will install and get you a rebated install...this is your chance to post a reply here...


Now in relation to maths for use...for this eg...i am basing lpg at .80cents/litre and unleaded at $1.30/litre

the tank size of the lpg will depend if you opt for in spare wheel fit ..or tank..and what size tank..
so that is variable
the vt has a 75 litre fuel tank...

Now as i mentioned before fitting prices seem to be standard at $2500---2600 venturi system..
the cheapest you can fit to a vt..v6 as far as i know...

now some places include with the fit... some or all of these...
1) free new spark plugs
2) free new spark leads for lpg
3) a free install tune and free post install tune in 1000--5000kms
4) a free tank of lpg fuel
5) a free upper cyclinder lube unit...

Now basically gass units do need a upper lube for the the engines...some do it and swear by it and some dont.
Everyone who has a lpg can place his 2 cents in the post for that also...

Its been said by holden and others that lpg use ..is 20% more fuel in lpg than petrol for the same workload...and there are workloads lpg can not do effectively

the starting base point for vt v6 is 11litres/100kms of lpg so per 100kms a cost of $8.80
its also been said the limit range is lpg use is up to 14litres /100kms
post that it uses unleaded..

so the figures for that are...
city and town driving

11/100km $8.80
12/100km $9.60
13/100km $10.40
14/100km $11.20

Now if anyone with a lpg has some real figures for this ..please post them..and how you got them etc..


Now for vt v6...unleaded will be taken to be full power ...not sugar base,,,

town driving

6.6l/100km $8.58 range 1135kms
7.0/100 9.10 1070
7.5/100 9.75 1000
8.0/100 10.40 935
8.5/100 11.05 880
9.0/100 11.70 830
9.5/100 12.35 790
*********
city driving

10/100 13.00 750
10.5/100 13.65 715
11.0/100 14.30 680
11.5/100 14.95 650
12/100 15.60 625
12.5/100 16.25 600
13/100 16.90 575
13.5/100 17.55 555
14.0/100 18.20 535


Anyone outside the range in lpg or petrol..is a petrol head and does not need to know this info...LOL
However it does tell them what the cost of the speeding and zoooming has on there pocket...LOL

Personally i think the holden v6 is the best option for lpg
and from vs ---- onwards the best engines to do it...given the factory was building them for lpg and supercharge and turbo and sugar base fuel..
No later holden past 1998 is really any better in terms of fuel use...despite the extra computer junk...

Now i am interested in hearing from users of lpg short term and long term..
i am interested in hearing from installers
i am interested in hearing from wreckers and 2nd hand installers too..
mainly in qld...and upper nsw..
for my own interest...
however i open the floor to other states etc...in the interest of all..

if you are a installer say what you will do and give with your package..and price..and time to do job..
and notice to do job...
if your a wrecker state if the pack --lpg kit is fully there or not..and whats needed along with price

Well i hope this gets some interest and facts flowing..
unknowncode:surprise:

 

[strgas]

16 yrs fitting gas dont buy a second hand unit from a wrecker as its more trouble than its worth and if you ring around for a quote to fit this second hand kit you will more than likely be told there is no warranty on this second hand junk , end of the day you get what you pay for and doing it on the cheap can cost you more in the long term . my two cents

 

[VSteve]

I have had 3 LPG cars so far and my advice would be to steer clear of the mixer ring type systems. They were initially designed for stationary engines that operate at a single RPM. IMPCO is probably your best budget system. The two main thing you need to understand with gas is expect backfires. Doesn't matter what people tell you. An LPG fueled car will eventually backfire and the only way to avoid this would be to install gas injection so your manifold isn't full of fuel that can combust in the first place. Secondly expect a lack in performance. This is due to the restriction that is placed in the intake. Once again gas injection will solve this issue. The only issue with LPG injection is the price and if you get a dodgy installer you might get swarf in the engine.

 

[codeunknown]

thanks guys so far

i tend to agree on the used lpg thing...specailly if there goin to charge you nearly top dollar anyway!
and i agree also injected gas is the way to go....and yes i had my fair share of blow backs in the air intake...doing hissy fits and bad running..most often it was a spark causes issue...or vapor caused issue..

However i was told with my first lgp to do the following and perhaps its still valid..
Always hold the computer managed ones in man overirde petrol mode...to start ...and hold it there till you hear the engine has warmed fully up..so that is from a cold start about 4-5kms
and run it on petrol cool down before you shut it down..
check the spark often...i had one of those spark booster coils and spark booster on the ht leads...
i think from memory one one car did i add a lube to the tank..

i got an old nissan bluebird in the yard ...it runs on LPG only! we had it for years...
never had a issue at all with it..
had to screw in the adapter to fill it...
when we got it it had the petrol tank removed...
that 200b engine is way old....
and i dont think it every blew when we drove it...and it dont have any management ..its a carbi adapter type..

taxi have a lot running with gas and petrol..and when i drove a taxi..it was 2 tanks petrol 1 tank gas use....

thanks..so far for the current feedbacks... i know we will get some great ones i am sure

 

[Holdens Rule]

I put a second hand tank in my last car but that was because it was just a work car. I had that tank tested, fitted with new fittings and then painted so you could almost say it was like a new tank anyway but the rest of the installation was brand new. That install cost me about $1800 from memory but that was about 3 years ago and I'm in Adelaide. My current car is a VT and this set up is all brand new. I had it done about 2 years ago for $2400 and that is with all the things you mentioned in your prices. It is a mixer ring set up and again I've had no problems with it. It starts on petrol and uses some petrol when the engine is under stress but it does drink a bit more gas than petrol and power is down a little but it's not huge anyway and I have found it idles a lot smoother than it did on petrol. You have to sum up what you use your car for to determine what set up to use, in my case I couldn't justify the extra cost of gas injection for what I want as it's just a stock V6 that get's me from A to B. I have had gas cars for a while and have never had a backfire so perhaps I'm lucky but I do keep the ignition system in good condition.

 

[strgas]

I have had 3 LPG cars so far and my advice would be to steer clear of the mixer ring type systems. They were initially designed for stationary engines that operate at a single RPM. IMPCO is probably your best budget system. The two main thing you need to understand with gas is expect backfires. Doesn't matter what people tell you. An LPG fueled car will eventually backfire and the only way to avoid this would be to install gas injection so your manifold isn't full of fuel that can combust in the first place. Secondly expect a lack in performance. This is due to the restriction that is placed in the intake. Once again gas injection will solve this issue. The only issue with LPG injection is the price and if you get a dodgy installer you might get swarf in the engine.

IMPCO systems were made for stationary engines to begin with , LPG doesnt back fire its the engine's base tune that causes the stray spark from old leads or spark plugs worn out , a lean mixture can be casued by poor mixture control or poor intake gaskets and seals leaking air into the mix , a worn valve face or burnt valve can cause a back fire a crook lifter holding open the valve at the point of ignition , driver error when starting with foot on the throttle , incorrect spark plug gap , incorrect spark plug selection .

 

[BT1-355]

IMPCO systems were made for stationary engines to begin with , LPG doesnt back fire its the engine's base tune that causes the stray spark from old leads or spark plugs worn out , a lean mixture can be casued by poor mixture control or poor intake gaskets and seals leaking air into the mix , a worn valve face or burnt valve can cause a back fire a crook lifter holding open the valve at the point of ignition , driver error when starting with foot on the throttle , incorrect spark plug gap , incorrect spark plug selection .

I 100% agree with you, i have been installing LPG for many many years now. And the only time i fine it backfiring, is when 1 car is poorly mantain (refer to above) 2 wasn't installed correctly (gas fitters fault) or 3 CHEAP LPG parts (there is alot of cheap and nasty stuff, comming from over seas and beleive me they are **** HOUSE). If you are going to get your car fitted to LPG, i would NOT go for the cheapest price. Ask them what equipment are they using, is it GENUINE (there is alot of copy's out there), what gas tank are they fitting? is your wires soldiers? spilt tube? etc etc I would also ask them to show you a finish product of theirs (you want it to look nice and neat)

 

[codeunknown]

thanks guys....and thanks some fitters for giving some feedback...

we got a few mentioned in my quotes...

elko
sprintgas
eurogas
a clone version of impco...what ever that is?

Can you guys tell us about these brands or others ?

extended cover for those who get a upper lube unit and fee for 3 year 100000km upper cover $300
lube unit fitted $100--150

getting info out of lpg fitters for quotes...is like pulling teeth...they dont like to say much...but there price..frankly...

1 has quoted a range of 400kms from a 70litres of usable gas....
if i had to use 17 litres to do a 100 kms....i be unimpressed...
And some state thay sell the wheel ..hole tank...and claim its 33litres...and some say its 44litres usable...
and 33 would get you 300kms...range.....and a 44... 400kms.they are both cheap....and the quotes for systems with them fitted is...
2400----2550
i like to know the real size...of usable gas for them...""fitters got any ideas on size""
if 70 litres has a range of 650plus ...kms

i think despite the fact,,,small tanks for wheel hole take up less..there there for people who can not afford to loose wheel space...for whatever reason...
and bigger tanks people dont care about boot...cause most are a 2 person car...or 2.5 family

small tank people would commute to work on gas and are happy to refill cause they are on the road passing stations...
large tanks are for people who want more grand touring....or are lazy commutors who dont want to pull up for gas top ups so often waiting in the huge cues with the coles dockets in the car when the air con buggers up...right..

well i live in the country...and its a fair trip 100kms in and 100 back to real shops
i be wanting the big tank...more than the little one....
cause i can fill it...and it gives me range...and i can loose the boot space..cause all my kids are grown up..and only 1 at home..part time...
so i know my milage...
i know my use
i know my need
i know what i pay for fuel..\
and can be seen from my maths...i like to know
its hard to get to look at finsihed products...but i agree workmanship is key..as are the parts they use.

What do our own member fitters think is a good price?
Do we have membership discounts ? from the site...should we?

Whats a good brisbane price //and sydney price and vic price...for a vt?
and what parts do you guys use...? brands etc...
And what to you give with your fittings..?

 

[QldKev]

My old ED fairmont, yes a ford sorry for mentioning that word on here, had an IMPCO system fitted. I drove about 150,000km using this setup prior to selling the car.

Some of my observations from this car:
Power was reduced, but bottom end torque was actually better
- This is important as the V6 is a more revvy engine, so a larger impact is assumed
I did have issues with the mixer adjustment, resulting in a blown air intake box.
- This is quite common with a lot of LPG systems. To me this was a concern as my wife drove the car often, and her becoming stuck would not have been great. I went to 2 seperate LPG centres trying to fix this (several trips) and ended up with the original instlaller(who had since retired) needing to rectify it. (This was in WA)
Using LPG I averaged 16L/100km (just over 20% increase from ULP)
- As expected really.
On country trips I didn't have the high reduction in fuel economy vs city driving
- This was a concern for me. Often there was minimal $ saving compared to running ULP. Often I would just use ULP on country trips. Also the engine didn't want to rev hard on LPG, so overtaking became more a concern. In your case living remote, this may impact you more? I'm not sure if this is the same on the V6.
Towing
- The installer did not recommend towing heavy items whilst in LPG mode. He said the LPG burnt hotter, and with the extra load of towing it caused extreme conditions for the engine. Often I towed a large/heavy boat; so would need to use ULP.
LPG Tank size
I went for the boot mounted tank that sits behind the rear seat to get the max size. Most of the time this was ok, except on holidays when you have excess luggage. Also I did want to fit a sub woofer encloser and with the LPG tank already in the best position I had to have a not so effective encloser; that I had to build so I could easily remove as it had to be in the main part of the boot.

Overall I did like the LPG system. The backfiring / blowing up the intake box was a concern not only for break down, was it dangerous? Around town it was cheaper to run than ULP. I have added a pic to show the size of the tank in the boot.

I sold the car and now have a GEN III and have not investigated getting LPG installed. The main reason being I now live in Qld and the difference between LPG+20% to ULP is not so great.

Hope this helps

QldKev

View attachment 89865

 

[codeunknown]

thanks qld kev...great feedback story...and i have to say i had the same sort of experience with my na ford...and i was not mentioning it...but you set the standard on that...