Well Done Alan Joyce - BALLSY!

[acex1138]

i'd love to see a government take over now.

 

[MasterOfReality]

lol its like shooting fish in a barrel around here...lol...

I Love my union and i dont need to defend it , it defends me....
and man i love my work condition's that i have that were fought for by my father and that i will fight for, for my children as well.
Union bashing might be the flavor of the month for you at the moment , But i dont see your point ,
Unions are thing we have to have no matter how you like it , There are plenty of employers the will expliot younger and immagrant workers and there are employers that dont, but who is going to give them a voice?.... the unions thats who .....
some industries my work fine with out unions but for the most there needed for worker protection. spend enough time in heavy industry and you find unions are a evil that we have to have.........or wait till your backs against the wall with and employer and see who come to help......

In my experience, there are two groups of people that need unions:

1. Those that are genuinely unable to look after themselves, and
2. Those that are too stupid to look after themselves.

 

[MasterOfReality]

i'd love to see a government take over now.

Not that it would make anything better.

It was the ALP that sold off Qantas the first time round...............................

 

[Darren_L]

hang on - earlier you said those who are good negotiators get a good deal

Yes

now you're saying employers won't even negotiate.

no, I said under the AWA (which Rufys seems to believe is a solution to all the problems) an employer has the right to refuse an employee union representation at the negotiation table.

if my employer pulled any stunts with me - it would upset me, but i'd just look elsewhere. but any employer with a shred of business nouse will negotiate in good faith with valued employees. valued employees...

In a perfect world yeah. But it's far from that. It's an employers market. Often company owners have good business sense, but the managers who hire & fire don't have a shred of business nouse. Most of my career I've worked in the private sector (this is my first govt job). And in all of those jobs, union presence/membership was weak at best, so there were no EBA's, pay agreements at all. 2 of those companies were large companies (one a national insurance company) Usually the only people who got a payrise, were the people who threatened to leave. During those 20 something years, I saw several good, hard working, people with 10+ years of valuable experience walk due to managers disregarding their value as an employee. They were simply replaced with less experienced people who were willing to put up or shut up. And any other valuable employees who maybe feared the prospect of job security ? finding another job, simply remained on award wages.

that's not a real-life example. the Qld Govt is part-owned by the unions and will tend to come to a cosy agreement with each other.

How is that not real life ? The Qld government isn't part owned by the unions. It's 100% owned by and answerable to the Qld taxpayer. Whilst the labor government was largely created from the union movement and consisted heavily of union members, in more recent years labor has increasingly distanced itself from the unions. The Qld Govt is one of Australias' largest employers. So there's plenty of real life about it. QPS (Qld Police) is also a government department, but it's union is constantly in conflict with the state government. And for good reason IMO. Police in this state are treated & paid by the govt like second rate citizens. So simply because the current Qld Govt is a labor govt, don't assume they will roll over on their back when unions make their demands.

 

[Dr HaxZaw]

Clean em all out and start again.

I was only thinking last night as i went to bed that the should just stop quantas... woke up and saw it had happened and was pretty surprised

Somehow i think the unions lost sight of the fact that to get better wages you need a job and if you dont do your job you get fired

 

[jules]

During those 20 something years, I saw several good, hard working, people with 10+ years of valuable experience walk due to managers disregarding their value as an employee.

so what? that's life - you don't make laws for everyone based on the exception.

EBAs ensure lazy, good for nothing leeches receive similar pay to diligent, smart employees. i've seen it - and of couse, in their eyes, those lazy employees are the best, it's just that no one else realises it. is that fair? hell no.

the bottom line is that if they were really good employees, they'd find a job elsewhere - probably for higher pay. it's not an "employers market" at all - good employees are hard to attract and retain - they make managers look good. the notion that managers are just as happy with any employees - good or bad - is nonsense. i work with staff who are an utter PITA and others who are highly diligent - senior mgt know who they are and work hard to retain the good people. as someone whose performance is assessed partly on those who support me, i can assure you the last thing on my mind is to encourage good staff to leave.

How is that not real life ? The government isn't part owned by the unions. It's 100% owned by and answerable to the taxpayer. And decisions are made on that basis.

sorry to burst your bubble, but Qld is Labor held, which means it is union held. Labor is crawling with ex-union hacks and this obviously makes union-govt negotiations easier. if you're under any misconceptions about unions influence over day-to-day govt decisions, let me set you straight..

 

[Bravotwozero]

Not sure why all the unionists are so upset. All QANTAS have done is use beat the unions at their own game. Usually it is a union calling a strike and the company reacting to end it. This time the company has brought on industrial action and now the unions are the ones reacting. Brilliant move by Joyce imho.

i'd love to see a government take over now.

Juliar couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

 

[jules]

Brilliant move by Joyce imho.

qantas are screwed. they can't compete with lower cost asian and ME airlines. he's got nothing to lose anymore. it only highlights how delusional the unions are about maintaining 'business as usual'.

 

[Bravotwozero]

qantas are screwed. they can't compete with lower cost asian and ME airlines. he's got nothing to lose anymore. it only highlights how delusional the unions are about maintaining 'business as usual'.

I don't agree entirely with that, but only time will tell.

 

[Darren_L]

so what? that's life - you don't make laws for everyone based on the exception.

Thankfully a large percentage of our community doesn't share your philosophy... 'that's life' could be said about a lot of injustices. People lost their houses, lives in the recent storms and cyclones in Qld. 'So what ? that's life ?' Fortunately not everyone in this country thinks only of themselves....

EBAs ensure lazy, good for nothing leeches receive similar pay to diligent, smart employees. i've seen it - and of couse, in their eyes, those lazy employees are the best, it's just that no one else realises it. is that fair? hell no.

AWA's also ensure that lazy, good for nothing employees who excel in covering their arses and kissing the employers arse are looked after. Is that fair ? 'Hell no....'

the bottom line is that if they were really good employees, they'd find a job elsewhere - probably for higher pay. it's not an "employers market" at all - good employees are hard to attract and retain - they make managers look good. the notion that managers are just as happy with any employees - good or bad - is nonsense. i work with staff who are an utter PITA and others who are highly diligent - senior mgt know who they are and work hard to retain the good people. as someone whose performance is assessed partly on those who support me, i can assure you the last thing on my mind is to encourage good staff to leave.

that's not the bottom line at all. It is an employers market. Are you aware of the unemployment rate ? Yes GOOD workers are difficult to find, yet employers still let good staff walk because they won't negotiate wages. My g/f has worked for a small company for about 6 years now. She enjoys the job overall, first few years were good, she was paid a small amount above award wage and was happy with that. But she hasn't had a pay rise now in nearly 3 years. She's not great at confrontations and therefore rather uncomfortable about requesting payrises, but despite this, has approached her employer a few times now and asked if they could look into it for her. Whilst they haven't denied her request, they just keep putting it off, obviously hoping she will just forget about it. She works flat out every day, and the workload is getting larger as the client base grows. So her employer has attempted to find an additional person to assist and to take over her role when she goes on annual leave. To date, they have had no success in finding a single person who can compentently take over her entire role. They now have 2 girls working with her who still struggle to take her place when she goes on holidays. Sure she could walk out and find another job, but she has 2 kids at school who she picks up in the afternoons and she's paying off a house So she needs a similar, stable job that she can work school hours, which is difficult to find. My point being, the fact that her employer can't replace her, would suggest to me that they would realise how valuable she is to them. However, still no word on a payrise - this has gone on for over a year now.

Maybe you are fortunate enough to work for one of those places that does recognise & reward good workers. I can assure you, that many workplaces don't.

sorry to burst your bubble, but Qld is Labor held, which means it is union held. Labor is crawling with ex-union hacks and this obviously makes union-govt negotiations easier. if you're under any misconceptions about unions influence over day-to-day govt decisions, let me set you straight..

no apologies necessary, you've only bursted your own bubble and failed to set anything straight. As said, look at other government departments like QPS and it will become quite evident that any association you might believe the government has with unions, has no influence on their employee/HR related decisions. There is a huge QPS/union dispute brewing up as we speak, Queensland Police Union which is far from a resolution. If the Qld govt is indeed as you claim, crawling with ex-union hacks, who have so much influence over unions, then why is this dispute between the unions and the Qld Govt continuing to escalate ? In fact why is there a dispute in the first place ? Doesn't appear to be any negotiations made 'easier', so far most negotiations have failed.