who's in the wrong?

[Philthy]

I hate that intersection. Very rarely use it (maybe once this year???) but overall I am surprised there aren't more accidents there.

Reaper

Ive seen a few accidents there. I always avoid it coz there are just cars and trams coming from every direction

 

[Morton]

It's not so bad since they've introduced flashing signs on most approaches to notify of an incoming tram... but I think that just makes people a little more careless.

 

[commsirac]

It's implicit, any vehicle on the right of you is technically in the roundabout before you, or will be. That is unless they are speeding through the roundabout and you pull out infront of them, in either case whoever is on the right would be deemed to be on the roundabout first.

Good luck arguing in a court that you were on the roundabout first when someone plows into the side of you and excessive speed was not a determining factor.

No its not. So any vehicle to the right of you is on the roundabout? no, the roundabout starts with those giveway lines. AFAIK, the only time the give way to the right rule applies in victoria is at a uncontrolled/unsigned cross road intersections, which logically they have tried to eliminate. Otherwise that law has been out longer than most here have been alive.

I too get fustrated by people that just sit at the entrance to a roundabout and give way to every vehicle approaching from the right. Especially if the roundabout is with a major and minor road. Somehow people on the minor road think they have to allow the people on the major road to go through and people on the major road think that they dont need to slow down when approaching.
The law is quite specific, give way to vehicles already on the roundabout. So if your vehicle enters before the vehicle on the right, they have to give way to you. The vehicle on the right may be approaching at a higher speed and the vehicle entering may be starting from rest........which would put them on a collision course, the vehicle on the roundabout still has right of way. However, both drivers will be held partly responsible if there is a collision in this circumstance, one for not giving way to vehicles on the roundabout/entering at a speed unable to avoid other vehicles, the other for not taking reasonable action to avoid a collision. Would be a tricky contest that i would prefer not to get involved in.

What do I do: I assess whether the vehicle on the right is going to be able to see me and stop if I do exercise the right of way. If its some deadhead(some refer to them as professional drivers) going to fast in a truck, then no point being stupid about it. So yes they have to brake quite hard, and I dont accelerate quickly to get out of their way either(why waste my tyres and fuel because they dont know the rules) lots of finger waving, usually its some aggressive type in a commodore LOL, that probably as ^ thinks there is a give way to the right rule. Sincerely I hope they get so aggrieved that they report the incident to police, and then the police put them right about what the law actually is.

 

[CSP]

Lets be grateful we dont have intersections like this yet

That one actually works well...

 

[GoodKarma]

Got to agree with you commirac. I was at the Beach Rd/Nepean Hwy roundabout in Mordialloc before the bridgeworks started. Went into the rounabout from Beach Road and this ar**hole come flying in from the right and T-boned me. I was definitely in the round about first (witness and all) and the insurance company just claimed a 50/50 blame. Easier for them and the cops!:bang: Still had to pay my insurance excess.:cry:

Minux, I went into a huge four lane roundabout near the Brandeberg Gate in Berlin, Germany and nearly got creamed. Must admit it was my fault...didn't know where I was going, left hand drive and was going from the centre lane to the outside.:whistling

 

[Calaber]

One day, someone is going to get killed at the roundabout at the end of my street. Our street has a 50kph speed limit but it enters the main road, with a 70kph limit, at the roundabout.

The traffic approaching from your right has just left the 110 kph freeway and, as the roundabout is at the bottom of a long downhill run from the freeway, the traffic from the freeway is often still travelling at well over 70. To complicate matters for those of us exiting our street, we have limited vision to our right because of the "ornamental" solid wall and vegetation on the corner of the intersection, and the design of the "chicane" as traffic approaches from the freeway. Really sh**house design, because it promotes the main road traffic flying through without any effort to slow down and local traffic having to enter into fast flowing traffic from a dead stop, with vision limited to no more than about 70 metres.

Regarding the debate as to who is in the right, think of it this way.

If two vehicles arrived simultaneously at the roundabout, then priority would have to be determined by other than the "first on the roundabout" rule. Under these circumstances, the old "give way to vehicle on right" HAS to apply, otherwise there would be no control of the situation and it would be worse than it already is.

 

[Philthy]

Regarding the debate as to who is in the right, think of it this way.

If two vehicles arrived simultaneously at the roundabout, then priority would have to be determined by other than the "first on the roundabout" rule. Under these circumstances, the old "give way to vehicle on right" HAS to apply, otherwise there would be no control of the situation and it would be worse than it already is.

That is my understanding as well

 

[commsirac]

Regarding the debate as to who is in the right, think of it this way.

If two vehicles arrived simultaneously at the roundabout, then priority would have to be determined by other than the "first on the roundabout" rule. Under these circumstances, the old "give way to vehicle on right" HAS to apply, otherwise there would be no control of the situation and it would be worse than it already is.

If they arrive simultaneously both travelling at the same speed and/or take off from rest then they are not on a collision course, they can both go, they have to be separated by some distance, there should be absolutely no problem here!

If they both enter simultaneously and one is starting from rest and the other, for arguments sakes enters at 60km/h then they will be on a collision course, the vehicle that is travelling too fast will be deemed to be at fault....approaching the rounabout at a speed where it can not avoid other traffic already on the roundabout they have to enter at a speed so they can stop if someone does enter just before them on the left or at the same time.
They only have right of way if they enter first, but if they were going at excess speed they can still be held responsible.

Most roundabouts have signs telling drivers to either slow down or a suggested speed, in suburban streets where roundabouts are tight and small drivers are also logically expected to drop from the 50km/h as they enter, not see how fast they can get through it. Regardles, motorists are obliged to approach them at a speed so they can avoid a collison if there is the simultaneous entry.

 

[Calaber]

If they arrive simultaneously both travelling at the same speed and/or take off from rest then they are not on a collision course, they can both go, they have to be separated by some distance, there should be absolutely no problem here!

If they both enter simultaneously and one is starting from rest and the other, for arguments sakes enters at 60km/h then they will be on a collision course, the vehicle that is travelling too fast will be deemed to be at fault....approaching the rounabout at a speed where it can not avoid other traffic already on the roundabout they have to enter at a speed so they can stop if someone does enter just before them on the left or at the same time.
They only have right of way if they enter first, but if they were going at excess speed they can still be held responsible.

Most roundabouts have signs telling drivers to either slow down or a suggested speed, in suburban streets where roundabouts are tight and small drivers are also logically expected to drop from the 50km/h as they enter, not see how fast they can get through it. Regardles, motorists are obliged to approach them at a speed so they can avoid a collison if there is the simultaneous entry.

Commsirac

Can't agree with your entirely. Look at my description of this particular roundabout again. I stated that traffic travelling from the freeway has a 70kph speed limit applying. There is absolutely no sign warning to slow down for the roundabout, only a roundabout warning sign, which is interpreted quite differently. Common sense says "roundabout coming up, slow down". Unfortunately, slowing down means coming back from more than 70 because the traffic has just exited from a 110 kph freeway and is generally still travelling at between 80 and 90 kph. Slowing down under those circumstances is interpreted as coming down to the 70 kph speed limit.

The roundabout I described is a large one, dual lanes entering from east and west, witht he 70 kph limit applying in both directions. It's located on a major off-road for a freeway and feeds heavy traffic during all times of the day into a large percentage of the region where I reside. As I stated, vision for the traffic entering from my street is limited. If oncoming traffic on your right is travelling at 70 or thereabouts, you have very little time to see the car, estimate its speed and enter the roundabout legally, having arrived at the roundabout first, with absolute safety

The vehicle travelling at speed may well be deemed to be at fault because they entered the roundabout after the vehicle on their left, but they would still have been travelling within the speed limit. Of course, that would be of no consolation to you if you had just been T-boned by a car on your right travelling at 60 or 70kph - you would probably be past caring.

It's my opinion that this particular roundabout needs additional traffic controls, such as a reduced speed zone on the eastern and western approaches, and improved line of sight for the side road traffic to see oncoming vehicles on their right. As I said earlier, somebody will surely die at this intersection before much longer. Maybe then, something will be done about it.

 

[commsirac]

Commsirac

Can't agree with your entirely. Look at my description of this particular roundabout again. I stated that traffic travelling from the freeway has a 70kph speed limit applying. There is absolutely no sign warning to slow down for the roundabout, only a roundabout warning sign, which is interpreted quite differently. Common sense says "roundabout coming up, slow down". Unfortunately, slowing down means coming back from more than 70 because the traffic has just exited from a 110 kph freeway and is generally still travelling at between 80 and 90 kph. Slowing down under those circumstances is interpreted as coming down to the 70 kph speed limit.

.

It would be good if there were signs advising people about what speed to drop to, and it seems like it is negligent omission at the roundabout you describe. It has all the hallmarks of what I described earlier where there is a major, minor road hierarchy which goes against the rules of how roundabouts work.(have you reported it to the authorities). If visibility is good for everyone at the roundabout and the curvature is minimal, then the speed at which cars can go through if they see no other vehicles ccould be higher, however, that certainly doesnt appear to be the case at the one you describe.
Nevertheless, signs or not, drivers are still obliged to slow to a speed in which they can avoid a collision with another vehicle that has entered the roundabout.