Are the (MSE/Director) & Magnum the best factory standard performance sedans/utes ever made?

[Forg]

I went from a VE SV6's to a VF1 SS. To say i was pretty underwhelmed is an understatement.

I only drove stock SV6's, so again no disappointment.

 

[monstar]

Getting back to Cuda's original question about "factory standard" the answer to his question would be no.
If you were to ask the same question about the LSA HSV's, then the answer might be different. The VF2's in my mind are still under powered in factory trim, though an improvement on the embarrassing 260kw that the VF1 had in factory trim. It's a decent amount of power, though not from a 6lt V8
My wife's 328i feels more of a performance sedan than the VF1 would ever be. If anything, the VF1 when i first had it reminded my of a latter day version of a Holden HQ with a 253 V8. All bark and no bite. At least the 253 sounded good ....
Even though the VF1 opened up with exhaust, CAI, and tune, we are talking factory standard

I think you've hit it on the head, really depends on personal view on what feels like performance -> sounds like performance versus real life metrics showing is not. Perhaps the best example is the transition from SS to Golf R, metrics are same or worse stock but ex-Commie drivers be coming out shaking with adrenaline skipping up the driveway to smash their love via keyboard. Brand Swingers? nah there's more to it.
VF1 is just 0.2 seconds slower 0-100 vs last of the LS3 with diff gears in the VFII SSVR, and both are more than a second faster than the 328i (turbo). Off topic for a moment regarding turbo sedans, the 1986 VL Turbo was just as fast as the 328i is today, felt like it was a rocket ship "off-the-clock-at-260". Back on-topic, with or without a turbo, 328i is just not in the league of the M5 of OP's quest.
Good point feels like performance is being delivered, really hard to find a metric for that like power to weight or torque to weight or 0-100 or 1/4 times.

 

[EternityDre]

I think you've hit it on the head, really depends on personal view on what feels like performance -> sounds like performance while clearly not.
VF1 is just 0.2 seconds slower 0-100 vs last of the LS3 with diff gears in the VFII SSVR, and both are more than a second faster than the 328i (turbo). Off topic for a moment regarding turbo sedans, the 1986 VL Turbo was just as fast as the 328i is today, felt like it was a rocket ship "off-the-clock-at-260". Back on-topic, with or without a turbo, 328i is just not in the league of the M5 of OP's quest.
Good point feels like performance is being delivered, really hard to find a metric for that like power to weight or torque to weight or 0-100 or 1/4 times.

Torque to weight seems apt but obviously that's variable depending on RPM, you'd need to use peak power as the figure. My upgraded MSE pushes me back in my seat above 4000 rpm, feels fast and is arguably too fast for the street, but it all comes down to perspective. People used to driving lighter, higher power cars would find my MSE slow most likely. I can't even imagine what it would feel like driving a McLaren 720s or something similar.

 

[VS 5.0]

I'm not out to race anyone, so feels like performance is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[VS 5.0]

Good point feels like performance is being delivered, really hard to find a metric for that like power to weight or torque to weight or 0-100 or 1/4 times.

The only tool to measure that is the arse dyno.

 

[monstar]

I'm not out to race anyone, so feels like performance is not necessarily a bad thing.

The only tool to measure that is the arse dyno.

I have

Torque to weight seems apt but obviously that's variable depending on RPM, you'd need to use peak power as the figure. My upgraded MSE pushes me back in my seat above 4000 rpm, feels fast and is arguably too fast for the street, but it all comes down to perspective. People used to driving lighter, higher power cars would find my MSE slow most likely. I can't even imagine what it would feel like driving a McLaren 720s or something similar.

Yeah cars that make an arse dyno spit a valve are not always the best performers outright, like an innocuous little bridge ported RX2 at 9000 RPM, a beach buggy popping wheelie at lights, a 930 coming into boost, Escort with a BDG heel-and-toe around a hairpin... a stock VE SS would annihilate all of these in almost every circumstance. There's a lot to be said for stress-free repeatability of the Zeta, and the motorsport endurance mods of the MSE underline that.

 

[426Cuda]

The 300 odd kw of the vf2 is a fair "stock" PEAK power figure (if hsv never exsisted they would've given us alot more).. but the thing that got me was how boring the power delivery is. And to think the vf2 is more peppy with the 3.7 diff ratio makes me wonder how boring a stock vf1 would be. Alot of disappointed vf1 buyers i would imagine.

Despite only 260kw (auto), this car was quicker around a track than a 335kw XR8. Despite being similar in weight. Goes to show, there's more to a great performance sedan than a big final power figure.
I still love my VF1. To be honest though, it wasn't stock long enough to feel any disappointment. It's a great car. HSV headers, 2.5" HSV exhaust, OTR and a tune. Easily quicker than a stock VF2 even with the higher diff ratio.

 

[426Cuda]

The only tool to measure that is the arse dyno.

The arse dyno says the stock VF2 is substantially quicker than the stock VF1. With an extra 44kw, more area under the curve and a lower diff ratio that's no great surprise.

 

[monty_vfssv]

Despite only 260kw (auto), this car was quicker around a track than a 335kw XR8. Despite being similar in weight. Goes to show, there's more to a great performance sedan than a big final power figure.
I still love my VF1. To be honest though, it wasn't stock long enough to feel any disappointment. It's a great car. HSV headers, 2.5" HSV exhaust, OTR and a tune. Easily quicker than a stock VF2 even with the higher diff ratio.

Your not wrong there.. the falcons chassis is absolutely crap for lap times, it would be alot of fun i guess with all the oversteer..

I've never driven a stock vf1, but on paper it looks a bit sad.. it was just an assumption that vf1 owners would be disappointed.. and as monstar said theres only 0.2 seconds difference in the 0-100 between the two so not chalk and cheese i guess.

If you were to modify the vf1 engine, it would be on par with a modified vf2 engine, be bugger all difference even with the extra 200cc.. so happy days in that regard.

 

[VS 5.0]

The arse dyno says the stock VF2 is substantially quicker than the stock VF1.

0.2 to 100 different but how much difference to the train tracks ?