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4 Corners 'Peak Oil'

vztrt

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jules said:
i recommend reading the Govt's Biofuels Taskforce report.

there are two problems with ethanol:
1. at the moment, it's more expensive to produce than petrol. this is offset by subsidies (i.e. every time you watch someone fill up at the pump with E10, he's got his hand in your wallet). but it may eventually become cheaper as the oil price rises higher.

Naturally it would be more expensive to produce, we dont require it that much. If capacity were increased than it would be cheaper to produce. This is actually in brazil where there reliance on oil has been heavily reduced.


jules said:
2. it's produced at the margin. ethanol, and its feedstocks (sugar cane, wheat) are produced primarily for other markets. but when those markets shrink, it's really handy to be able to sell those products to other customers (motorists, as fuel).

the problem with this setup is not ethanol itself, but that its producers really just want to exploit motorists to offload spare capacity when it suits them, as it does now. they have no intention or ability to invest in the major infrastructure needed to feed the whole of australia's fuel needs.

for that reason, the whole argument about everyone using ethanol is redundant. if we all agreed to use it, they'd couldn't meet the demand.

As for handouts it cost more to produce suger than it cost to sell and the sugar farmers are getting subsidied by the government. Now for this to work it would require investment in alternative fuels, i guess with the 50c per litre of tax that the government gets it could goto into this.

Everybody wouldn't use this technology at once, peoples finances wouldn't allow it. But bringing it onto the market would allow an ease on the reliance of petrol. Like I said earlier these motors can run regular petrol so the driver isn't restricted to using E85 petrol.
 

jules

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i think what you've written is basically correct, but economists would warn against this type of interventionism. i must admit i'd tend to agree with them.

as petrol becomes more expensive due to rising oil prices, we may find ethanol become more viable. but using subsidies to build a market for it is a house of cards, it costs taxpayers and it also represents large risks for investors (unlike genuine viability, subsidy-based markets can disappear overnight with changes in legislation).

but i don't want to bore everyone with economics :)
 

Pub247

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One of the best ethanol sources is HEMP yes beautiful weed err... i mean thc free marijuana. grows anywhere doesn't require much care and smokes up real good.. the tyre's i mean
 

jules

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what sick person would take weed and turn it into fuel!?

seriously tho you can distill ethanol from a wide variety of agricultural feedstocks.
 

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jules said:
i think what you've written is basically correct, but economists would warn against this type of interventionism. i must admit i'd tend to agree with them.

as petrol becomes more expensive due to rising oil prices, we may find ethanol become more viable. but using subsidies to build a market for it is a house of cards, it costs taxpayers and it also represents large risks for investors (unlike genuine viability, subsidy-based markets can disappear overnight with changes in legislation).

but i don't want to bore everyone with economics :)

But the government subsidies alot of things, what I'm trying to say is that the government could get rid of subsidising our sugar farmers as they would make a better profit with supplying the cane for ethanol. So there's money already that can be invested to setup ethanol refining.

The government now subsides 38c/pl for fuels in the transport sector. At first(when it was 18c/pl) it was because of the extra tax that was left on diesel after the GST came in, but now the subsidy has been raised to reduce transport costs. Whats going to happen when fuel increases again? Seeing that petrol and diesel are needed to deliver every good, the price will be passed onto the consumer. So I wouldn't see this subsidy as a waste of money but an investment.
 

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the govt. has a fuel excise of 38 c/l. the ethanol subsidy is not in the form of a physical payment to ethanol producers, but by exempting them from this excise.

this gets very subjective and arbitrary. basically in the old days sugar cane farmers were needed. for a range of reasons, including globalisation and industrialisation, we don't need them as much anymore. that's harsh but probably true. sugar is available cheaply as an import, if we choose not to place a huge tariff on it.

ethanol is johhnie howard's solution to this problem, by growing a market for fuel ethanol, this whole issue of aussie farmers with their backs against the wall goes away (for sugar cane farmers anyway).

if you look at places like europe and even the US, there are huge problems with farms no longer being viable. in europe the farmers have strikes and riots.

the whole thing about ethanol and relieving dependency on crude oil imports is a bit of a furphy. imo it's more about keeping farmers afloat. the US does this by mandating ethanol in fuel in states where corn is grown.

using investment to grow a local ethanol industry is not stupid, there's some sense to that. but i believe that instead, the market should dictate that on its own, i.e. without subsidies. many economists would argue the best solution is usually letting the market determine what happens.

at the moment, ethanol wouldn't be viable without the subsidy created for it.
 

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All valid arguments re ethanol. It highlights one problem with our economic system though: it only recognises human energy, which is valid but not the whole story. At the moment our society is built on the efforts of plants/algae and geological processes over millenia. Nothing can produce energy in the quantity and quality or rate at which that has provided, except terrestial nuclear fusion and that is a LONG way off being viable.

The economic system also takes into account the products of previous generations of human energy and this is how economies are able to grow: each generation leaves behind a little more product than they use in their lifetimes. The economic system is very reluctant acknowledge wrong turns and to discard any of that human energy, regardless of whether it will have to be discarded eventually anyway. This is why extant government 'subsidies' for alternative fuel sources are required: the existing fuel infrastructure is ' historically subsidised' by previous generations' energy input, both human and fossil.

I would prefer to see this subsidy accounted for directly by government excises on 'dead end' fuel sources rather than see any one alternative promoted. I think that the excises on diesel and petrol are currently too low to account for the 'historical subsidy' but would have to be ramped up slowly to avoid undo economic stress and would be political suicide for any political party attempting it. Unfortunately, as it will hurt more not to do that.

Ultimately, informed free markets (as much as they exist as truly 'free') ARE probably best left to determine outcomes IF they can be configured to take into account the true cost of utilising any resource and IF they acknowledge that there are fundamental limits to the levels of resources available on this planet. Government intervention is usually required. Carbon taxes are one attempt at doing this, as are laws ensuring manufacturing wastes are disposed of at minimal cost to the environment.

Globalised markets rely on cheap energy (mostly oil) to function. If the cost of fueling ships to move goods from production to market rises substantially, it becomes cheaper to once again localise the souce of production. eg. the value of sugar as a domestic ethanol feedstock may rise. This becomes more difficult if the means of production has also been 'exported' ie. dismantled in favour of production in other countries.

There are other issues. Ethanol, best case, currently has a return of excess energy over that required in its production of less than 2:1. Oil, given the energy required to find and extract it, is currently around 8-10:1, depending on who you believe, but will slowly decline as more and longer holes are required to be drilled and more inaccessible areas explored for its discovery and extraction. Ethanol has scope for improvement but probably not to 8:1. These are not economic costs, rather fundamental limits to the use of these sources of energy.

The RATE of oil extraction and use is related to the energy return on investment and ultimate quantity extracted also. I am not a geologist but I will try to explain as I understand it. Oil is generally contained in porous rocks (like big sponges) and as oil fields 'age' and oil and gas are extracted, the driving force, pressure, for pushing the oil through through the 'sponge' reduces and so the rate of flow decreases. Water can be allowed to flow or be pumped in to push the remaining oil through but this takes the addition of extra energy. There are limits to the rate at which water can be pumped through also; too fast and the oil breaks into smaller droplets and is left behind as irrecoverable, or may be left in small pockets in the irregular shapes of fields. More holes or horizontal (longer) holes can reduce the distance which oil has to travel hence speeding the rate of extraction but each extra length of hole drilled takes more energy, both human (economic cost) and resource (lower net return).

The best hope for ethanol is the development of processes for extracting it from feedstocks other than starch/sugar - namely lignin and cellulose. These represent a much larger proportion of plant material and have less (but not always nil) economic value for other purposes. In order for those processses to be developed, an economic incentive has to be in place: humans have to see a reward for their effort. There has to be a market and they can't compete currently with historically subsidised oil, nor be brought on quickly enough when they can.

Ethanol is better than most alternatives in that it can take advantage of some of the energy locked in the existing infrastructure developed for (and using) oil. The same is true of biodiesel but the scope for substantially increasing the production of it is limited because the potential feedstocks are limited and tend to be in competition with food production rather than complementary.

Most of the relevant issues are discussed on the 4 corners Peak Oil forum (a search will find). What isn't given any mention is the role biotechnologies might play in accessing alternatives to oil. Unfortunately, most of the monetary return (and the glamour) in biotech is currently in the production of high value medical products. Some of this is political in that there is distrust of genetically modified foods and methods of crop production using it.

There is scope for improvement in all aspects of oil/gas substitution using biotech. Nitrogen fertiliser (natural gas) use could be reduced by incorporating nitrogen fixing bacteria into rhyzozomes in the roots of plants, like those naturally occuring in legumes, for example. Crop yields can be improved (within fundamantal limits once more) using GM crops - whether through pest resistance or manipulating desirable parts of the plants to be produced in greater proportion.

Industrial processes for producing things like chemicals and precursors for plastic production can be improved or substituted for, by using biologically derived enzymes or genetically modified organisms, and biologically derived feedstocks, the range of feedstocks being opened up by the use of the enzymes and/or GM organisms. Ethanol from ligno-cellulosic feedstocks is just one example. Material substitutions can be made in some cases eg. cellulose fibres used in composite materials.

As an aside, the best woods have strength to weight ratios in compression equal to or exceeding mild steel and, due to their low densities, they can be used in such a way as to have stiffness to weight ratios better than all but carbon fbre composites.

If biotech is used to develop complete organisms, whether improved crops or micro-organisms for industrial processes, the need for substantial changes in infrastructure is reduced - they are self-replicating.
 

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Cheap6 said:
The best hope for ethanol is the development of processes for extracting it from feedstocks other than starch/sugar - namely lignin and cellulose. These represent a much larger proportion of plant material and have less (but not always nil) economic value for other purposes. In order for those processses to be developed, an economic incentive has to be in place: humans have to see a reward for their effort. There has to be a market and they can't compete currently with historically subsidised oil, nor be brought on quickly enough when they can.

this is the fundamental dichotomy faced by the ethanol industry. the industry in practice is supported by those whose interests lie in shifting surplus sugar cane or wheat. you are correct that alternative feedstocks such as cellulose are scientifically recognised as environmentally superior. but the industry as it current exists is not interested in those feedstocks.

the situation is a metaphor for the whole energy debate. we can sit here and theorise which energies and sources are the best, but at the end of the day those who stand to make the most money will shape what happens in the marketplace.

govt. intervention is the simple but horrendously expensive means of reshaping this situation. subsidising the use of ethanol may have environmental benefits (the greenhouse benefits of ethanol over petrol exist if you get the production process right, but they are not huge) but why should australians shell out hard earned money when countries like china, US and india pour GHGs into the atmosphere at 1000x the rate we do? it doesn't make sense.
 

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jules said:
the govt. has a fuel excise of 38 c/l. the ethanol subsidy is not in the form of a physical payment to ethanol producers, but by exempting them from this excise.

The 38cpl excise is on petrol there is an extra 17cpl excise (on top of the 38cpl) on diesel that was meant to be cut when the GST came into the country, but was kept as the theory was that we would all start driving diesel cars.
 

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are you sure? i thought petrol and diesel were both at .38.
 
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