Engine Rebuild Help Pls

[Alcyone]

VY V6 Ecotec 360,000 km's engine is out and on the engine stand. Heads are in the shop. Was blowing coolant out spark plug 6 hole when compression test done. That's how all this came to be. Left head was getting approx 140psi on all cylinders (1, 3, 5). Cylinder 2 was about 140 too. Took right head off and cylinder 6 was full of coolant. I didn't see any cracks in the right head gasket so I took the head and gasket into the shop. There was some degradation in the factory graphite/composite right head gasket in between cylinder 4 and 6 which the chap said was the cause of the leak.
Chap also said the intake valves were recessed in on both heads and needed to be redone inc valve stem seals. Head's are fine apart from that. I told him I was at the point of just having taken the front cover off the engine and timing chain was good etc and I was about to take the camshaft out to check it...seeing as everything was already out. He said not to bother and to just leave the camshaft and crankshaft, pistons, rings etc in place. A lot of oil gunk also led me to pull apart the lifters and clean them out. Amazing how much old oil and crud those things can hold if the car doesn't get regular oil changes. Valve train is good apart from that. Cleaned out the oil sump, oil pump etc.

Anyway...so chap wants $960 for the assessment of heads, cleaning, machining, valve seat job, Permaseal full gasket kit, head bolts and valve stem seals. I'm guessing the majority of that is approx $200 per head for the valve stem job each side...bit of work involved.

My question is about the pistons and rings. Should I go that little bit further and check them or throw it all back together and then do a compression test and keep my fingers crossed? Why would he say to not do it when I'm at this point? This is the first engine I've pulled apart and it's been both enjoyable and frustrating but I've learnt a lot. I have read up on heaps of things here and other places and also studied all the parts in the manual. I'm not experienced in all of this by any means but I can't get why he would say not to check the piston rings and camshaft etc. Can't afford any more money and sure as hell don't want block issues a few hundred or thousand km's down the road.

Trying to get some advice on what to do and whether to keep going or just wait for the heads, gasket kit and whack it all back together. It's Mum's car and she does about 5,000 km's - 10,000 km's a year in it now and if it gets another 100,000 km's then she'll be jumping for joy. Is the crankshaft and bearings really involved? So far everything has been pretty cruisy and I have the time to do it so that's not an issue.

Cheers,
Matt

 

[Alcyone]

and yes...if only I had seen the bad head gasket to begin with then all this would be sorted now...*sigh*...but then I wouldn't have had all this fun now would I

Do I have to replace the rocker bolts with new ones or can I reuse the old ones? $23 from Mace...

 

[Ozzie]

I was assuming by the title you would be doing a full rebuild.
If funds aren't an issue I'd be removing the crankshaft, replacing the rings and honing the bores if the piston tops and rods look to be in good nick
Change the bearings while your at it

 

[Alcyone]

I was assuming by the title you would be doing a full rebuild.
If funds aren't an issue I'd be removing the crankshaft, replacing the rings and honing the bores if the piston tops and rods look to be in good nick
Change the bearings while your at it

Your right Ozzie. The title should be 'Planned on Engine Rebuild but Newbie here Lost Confidence and Funds'. I had planned on stripping everything out of the block and checking everything, replacing what was out of spec or shot. Apart from finding the source of the coolant leak, the job was also meant to be a general clean to get all the gunk out of the block, heads and sump. It's been pretty poorly serviced over it's lifetime. But yes, funds are an issue now. Didn't expect the head shop to get almost $700. I was hoping to get everything done for under $1,000 inc parts, gaskets, seals etc...

I should just grow a pair and get back to it...actually finish what I've started. Saying that, I'll get back to it tomorrow and finish stripping the engine back. What's the use in spending $1,000 on rebuilt heads and a full gasket kit if the rest of the engine isn't getting done at the same time!

Cheers Ozzie. I'll come back and update here when I have some more questions.

 

[EYY]

Buy a good runner for $200 or less, replace the head gaskets and sump gasket and you're good to go for another 150,000+km.

Replacing head gaskets is about as much as you would want to do on one of these things. They don't take well to new bearings without index grinding the crank and resizing the rods. All bolts are torque to yield too, so you can't reuse any of them.

Yes they can be rebuilt, but not for reliability in a backyard setting with just new rings and bearings. They're not like an old 202 or 304 with large clearances. You can get away with just about anything with one of those

 

[Alcyone]

Buy a good runner for $200 or less, replace the head gaskets and sump gasket and you're good to go for another 150,000+km.

Replacing head gaskets is about as much as you would want to do on one of these things. They don't take well to new bearings without index grinding the crank and resizing the rods. All bolts are torque to yield too, so you can't reuse any of them.

Yes they can be rebuilt, but not for reliability in a backyard setting with just new rings and bearings. They're not like an old 202 or 304 with large clearances. You can get away with just about anything with one of those

I managed to track down a VY engine for $250 but still have to go pick it up. No idea what state it's in. Young bloke who owned it says that it would overheat after 2 hours. Will turn it over and see how it sounds. Any other things I could do to check it if he has taken it out of the car? Maybe take rocker covers off and have a squiz? Rotate the crank to make sure it isn't seized? Only meant to be 180,000kms.

So I guess my question here relates to what has to come out for the engine block to be cleaned. Everything I gather? ...but do the rings and bearings have to be replaced if they are in great condition? If the rings are good, does that mean the cylinders don't have to be honed?

When I removed the rear engine housing, there was a nice collection of rusted flakes sitting just inside the right side of the water gallery. So I'm thinking a full clean is definitely in order. But to do that, I have to remove the crankshaft, pistons and bearings don't I? I spoke to the chap at the machining shop (who still has the heads) about cleaning the engine block. He also said that if that was done, he would re-hone the cylinders, replace the rings ($100) and replace the bearings ($280). Are those costs okay? I know the rings are about $100 from MACE. I'm still waiting for the full quote re labour and cleaning. I asked him about the crankshaft and he said it should be fine. The CAM looked great but I haven't managed to check it properly yet. Pushrod roller ends were spotless. I ordered a piston ring compressor, micrometer and dial indicator set which should be here next week. Getting carried away maybe but why not stock up for the future. I guess I can also ask the head shop to check all that but I would love to be able to do it myself in the future on my own car. So I'm slowly building up supplies

All I have had time to do this week is remove the rear housing and it took me the better part of a few hours to get the cam bolt out. Had no 28/29? socket so turned it ever so slowly with an old shifter fit real tight around the cam bolt and the other hand on a breaker bar around the crank bolt. Worked out well eventually. Definitely getting a socket to do it back up though.

The head shop also said it would be easier for them if I had everything out of the block to take it in for the clean.

As EYY mentioned above, all bolts are torque to yield. I am replacing the head bolts (supplied by the machinist/head shop) & rocker bolts (getting these from either MACE or a fastener shop - 12.9). The manual says that the rear engine housing bolts are also unable to be used again. Are 8.8 okay for them or do I need 12.9? Not sure if I got those numbers right but the fastener shop should know. Or is it recommended to get the bolts from Holden? If I get the bolts from a fastener shop, are they still the same torque settings?

I can reuse the sump bolts can't I? I can also reuse the crankshaft main journal bracket bolts and the connecting rod bolts? Is there a handy list anywhere which shows exactly which bolts I can reuse and which ones I can't? I'm going through the manual and making notes as I go but I was hoping someone with personal experience might be able to say yay or nay to which ones really have to be replaced.

Cheers,
Matt

 

[Alcyone]

I was assuming by the title you would be doing a full rebuild.
If funds aren't an issue I'd be removing the crankshaft, replacing the rings and honing the bores if the piston tops and rods look to be in good nick
Change the bearings while your at it

Number 6 piston is so shiny it looks almost new. Number 4 piston is almost as close. I guess I thank the coolant for doing such a good clean. Mum said it billowed smoked out the exhaust for a good 5 minutes that morning we realised something was wrong. But the left side pistons are rather cruddy. I'm hoping a good clean will fix them right up. Fingers crossed. The pushrods are in great condition. Did a clean and roll test.

 

[harrop.senator]

I've backyard rebuild v6's with no issues but I always send the cranks to be polished and have the rods inspected to see whether they're out of round or not and plasti gauge them in more then on spot when checking the clearances.

Also the rod and main bolts are tty and should be replaced when rebuilt. Not many internal bolts on these motors are reusable at all.

 

[Alcyone]

I've backyard rebuild v6's with no issues but I always send the cranks to be polished and have the rods inspected to see whether they're out of round or not and plasti gauge them in more then on spot when checking the clearances.

Also the rod and main bolts are tty and should be replaced when rebuilt. Not many internal bolts on these motors are reusable at all.

Do you mean the conrod and main end bearings? (EDIT: I meant to say bolts, not bearings). I had a hunt online but can't seem to find any. Apart from Holden, do you know where I can get some prices on them? I'll also ask the head shop when I go in there next week with the block, crank and cam.
Just had a look and they sell them at Supercheap...wow I didn't think they would be so expensive! The head shop has done great prices on everything so far. Hopefully they can do the same on the bolts.

This might be something that's common knowledge, but is there any benefit to using TTY bolts? Is it for thermal expansion?

 

[harrop.senator]

Plasti gauging the bearing clearances i was talking about yes.

The bolts i think i used zzp in the us or gm in the us it wasn't cheap and most arp bolts for these motors require machining. A lot of the arp bottom end bolts for these require machining.

I have no idea why these motors use msinly torque stretch bolts most gm motors dont and its extremely painful.