Fuel issue on steep decline driveway?

[RiCeY]

Well I dropped the car off to Holden for 3 days whilst I was away on a holiday, showed them the videos and they said it's definitely strange. Came back today to pick up the car... nothing. Couldn't replicate the issue, this is getting beyond ridiculous. Whilst at the dealership I said is there a way you can escalate it through Holden and he said (approximately) that whilst there is an issue there really isn't anything to escalate.

A few things he said it might be is the oil pickup, being on such a steep slope even though the sump is full it might be moved away from the pickup. He recommended to just put a little more oil in (~250ml) and see how that goes as it definitely fixed the issue for a few days the first time. Another thing he said that it could be the timing chain slipping (referring to the rattle noise). Also that apparently the camshaft does test's or something and I really can't remember the rest.

Took the car home and parked it on the driveway for about 6-7 hours and I just went to move it before onto the flat road to put some more oil in, and what do you know? It had trouble starting, which is the video I've got below. I honestly don't know what to do now, every time it's down at the dealership for days on end it never happens (apart from the first time when it happened at the dealership and the oil was low, so they filled it up which resolved the issue for a few days). Is it worth ringing up Holden whilst the guy at the dealership said there really isn't anything to escalate? I'm starting to get the feeling that this is getting really annoying for them as much as it is frustrating for me. The service guy we know personally as a family friend... so we know he wouldn't lie to us.

We also suggested that it might be starved of fuel, to which his reply was that fuel delivery is pretty instantaneous.

What do you think now @Skylarking

Does sound like a fuel pressure issue on startup. Would need a gauge on the fuel system when it faults to confirm.

Even on a steep angle the oil pickup would be submerged.
Timing chains don't slip, the cam actuators can rattle on startup while building oil pressure but shouldn't affect starting.

Has it had a fuel pump replaced yet?

 

[snortings]

@snorting, I’d give HCC a call and outline your starting issue with the car when parked nose down on a decline of x degrees. That it has been at the dealer x times for a total of y days (whatever the numbers are) but their dealer was unable to resolve the issue in all their attempts to do so dispite clear evidence of a problem via video. That it all very frustrating not being able to rely on a 2015 model commodore (of which many sold with 5 year warranty).

Tell HCC that you want assistance provided to the dealer from someone within Holden enginerring department to aid them in fixing this major fault as, in the dealers words, they are stumped and clutching at straws.

I will do this on Monday.

Tell HCC that you want assistance provided to the dealer from someone within Holden enginerring department to aid them in fixing this major fault as, in the dealers words, they are stumped and clutching at straws.

Also tell them that if they can’t provide the required support to the dealer and provide a loan car to you while this fault is being resolved, you will have no choice but to consider this issue has raise to that of a major fault under ACL by virtue of the many failed attempts to rectify the problem. As such your only option will be to chose the ACL remedy of a full refund of purchase price due to major fault (don’t mention that this is a private purchase). But do highlight that you’d hope that someone within their engineering department will be able to help fault find and resolve the issue with the dealer as you’ve become attached to the car (though it is wearing thin by the day).

Yep a loan car would certainly be good, that way I can just leave it at the dealership whilst they try and fix it.

Has the vehicle ever had a sump removed?

I wouldn't have a clue, maybe the previous owner did I'm not sure sorry.

as I have my doubts they have actually placed the vehicle at the same incline as Wayne’s driveway for some 6 or so hours to have a better chance at simulating this intermittent start condition.

Nah they definitely have been, they showed me where they parked it and I drive past the dealership everyday and I see it's still on the decline.

Is his driveway built to the Australian standards?

Yes...

Has it been proven or disproven that this secondhand vehicle is experiencing a fault due to a manufacturing fault? And not something that occured while it was owned by the previous owner?

Would be a little hard to prove, but the guy's driveway was flat (the previous owner) so not sure if he had the issue or not.

I notice from your videos they're all remote starts. Does this happen only with the remote, or both?

Majority of the time it is remote start, but the video I posted with the illustration of my driveway was first with remote start but then I moved into the car to turn it on with the key and it still did it regardless. I normally always remote start my car, but I'd be willing to bet that it would also do it with the key. Now that I think about it, I know it still does it with the key.

@snortings Have you thought to ask the service manager / family friend to come to your house in the morning and start the car?

Well we've thought about that, but we haven't really asked. I'm not sure if they would honestly. The family friend has been to our house before and knows how steep our driveway is, so he has some knowledge about it.

Later, the dealer told him to overfill the sump (against GM/H documented statements in owners manual) and again told him to see how it goes.

I thought it was strange that they recommended I do this.

But as I don’t remember Wayne having clarified if this was a warranty or good will job, Wayne could feel hamstrung by the expected costs if he is to foot the end bill. If that is the case, as such, he may not be doing himself any favours though the above mentioned NSW truck case doesn’t absolve the mechanic in such cases.

For me, the warranty/goodwill status would have been the first thing I’d have sored out with Holden so that I know where I stand w.r.t. costs. If such is sorted out in Wayne’s favour surely the dealer must then drop the pan without question iand check their low oil pressure hypothesis (stuck pressure relief valve, cracked oil pickup o-ring, etc).

The first time I got charged for labor (to add the oil), but every time I've dropped the car off at the dealership they haven't charged me a dollar. I think if I wanted them to have a more extensive look, they'd start charging. That is another thing I forgot to mention, the guy did say it could be the o-ring. But then if I wanted them to check that I'd have to pay.

Does sound like a fuel pressure issue on startup. Would need a gauge on the fuel system when it faults to confirm.

Even on a steep angle the oil pickup would be submerged.
Timing chains don't slip, the cam actuators can rattle on startup while building oil pressure but shouldn't affect starting.

Has it had a fuel pump replaced yet?

Not sure if the fuel pump has been replaced previously, but nothing has been replaced in this fault finding process. I'd still think that if they wanted to put a guage on the car they'd charge me.

 

[Skylarking]

Nah they definitely have been, they showed me where they parked it and I drive past the dealership everyday and I see it's still on the decline.

Ok but have you told them what angle your car it at when parked down your driveway and did they replicate this angle at the dealers lot?

Yes...

Off thread but how can you be sure that your driveway is built to Aussie standard, considering it is so steep, unless you actually checked what is built against what the standard specifies? I’ve seen many non spec driveways goats would have trouble with. You can’t simply trust the because a builder did it, it is done correctly. If you’ve paid attention to the Opel tower issue in Sydney and the Neo200 building cladding fire in Melbourne you should suspect that if high rise builders are shoddy, home builders would likely be worse. In any case, your driveway, at 8 or 40 degrees is what it is.

The first time I got charged for labor (to add the oil), but every time I've dropped the car off at the dealership they haven't charged me a dollar. I think if I wanted them to have a more extensive look, they'd start charging. That is another thing I forgot to mention, the guy did say it could be the o-ring. But then if I wanted them to check that I'd have to pay.

Not sure if the fuel pump has been replaced previously, but nothing has been replaced in this fault finding process. I'd still think that if they wanted to put a guage on the car they'd charge me.

OK, so far it’s been a freebie (though you have been stung for a new battery and oil top up).

Sometimes freebies could explain, in part, the lack of progress in solving the problem.

If price is a concern, then you should discuss this with the dealer and see if they can check their concerns without disassembly. But this presumes any low oil or fuel pressure issues which could be contributing to the start problem are viewable via the dealer diagnostics system even if the actual start problem is not observed at a given time. intermittent fuel issues can be due to intermittan5 electrical connection while intermittent oil pressure seems less likely unless there is a sticking relief valve (mechanical issue). I’d have thought with would result in hard or pending fault codes.

But it seems when your car was connected to the dealer diagnostics system early in the process, and hard or pending fault codes were checked, only low voltage issues were seen and no low oil or fuel pressures seen during start.

Sadly, the new battery and oil top up did nothing to resolve your issue.

So if they can’t diagnose without disassembly, and you are concerned you’d be paying to have things pulled apart with no fault found, discuss this with the dealer. Then if your unhappy with the dealers response discuss it with HCC.

But it really seems that some money needs to be spend up front to hammer this problem, either your $ or HCC $... The dealer needs to have some freedom to do their job and it seems you may be hamstringing them in some ways.

As a final thought, if the previous owner was the first owner, I’d be asking who their insurance company was and whether the car was repaired after a crash, reason being that this may point to a crash related intermittent electrical issue that was not fixed by the repairer/insurance company. Some insurance companies have lifetime repair guarantee but I doubt it’s transferable to the next owner but it could be something to consider discussing with that insurance company. If such was the case and insurance company doesn’t want a bar of you, just like Riddick, you need to consider whether to “convert” or “fight”

 

[snortings]

@Skylarking, I will be ringing them (HCC) tomorrow. I'll let you know the outcome

 

[snortings]

@Skylarking

Right, after about an hour and a half on the phone seems like we will be getting somewhere. Explained all the issues to the guy on the phone and he took them all down and asked what outcome I'd like, to which I just said to be fixed lol (he laughed and said "yeah I'd hope so").

Long story short, he then put me on hold and rang the dealership and said that it needs to become more in-depth in finding the issue. So now the service manager is going to come around to my house in the mornings to witness it for himself. Not sure what he's going to do from there as it will sound the exact same as the videos... I'm about 2kms from the dealer so it's not like he's really going out of his way.

The guy was pretty understanding on the phone and seemed great, wouldn't be surprised if the dealership has the sh!ts with me now. Hopefully this gets resolved soon enough. After I finished on the phone with the dealership I was hoping I'd be put back through to customer care but when the dealer hung up it ended the whole call. I still wanted to ask customer care how they wanted to see the videos and say that from ACL interpretation that a minor fault becomes a major fault if it can't be remedied in 3 attempts.

 

[snortings]

Just got a call back from the local dealership and they think the rattling noise is, and I quote, "100% the timing chain". They're still unsure of what the starting cranking issue might be, but they seemed 100% certain that it is the timing chain. How much do these normally go for? Not cheap I bet...

They said in regards to the engine cranking, they'll do a fuel pressure test as the first step. Apparently it doesn't matter where they do it (as I suggested it be done on my driveway).

 

[RiCeY]

It needs to be done when the car is faulting or it's pointless, it's clearly an intermittent issue that can't be replicated at the dealership.

If they are so confident it's the chains say do the chains, if it doesn't fix it I'm not paying a cent.

 

[Skylarking]

Some VE V6’s had an issue with stretched timing chains so Holden released updated ECU code to better manage the stretch before it threw any fault codes. Such a solution simply sidesteps the problem as the chain is desires to be an still elastic band. Obviously the underlying issue with the chain itself must have been fixed in later builds so VF shouldn’t have an issue.

But from your VF V6 perspective, with correct scheduled servicing, one’s timing chain should last the life of the engine (which this NZ VE timing chain article equates to 300,000kms). It’s not listed as a specific serviceable item by Holden so it should need not replaced unless something is buggered (which shouldn’t occur if the service is done according to Holdens schedule).

So, if you have proof of correct servicing (by date and km) and if it is indeed the timing chain, don’t let them convince you it’s simply worn out at 113,000kms and you need to pay - it should be covered by Holden a cording to ACL.

If the car hasn’t been correctly serviced and the oil hasn’t been changed at the interval specified by Holden, then Holden can say the failure is due to lack of maintenance and it may cost a bucket of money

So, if you don’t have the service paperwork, find out if the previous owner does or if he can direct you to where you can get copies (a Holden dealer or 3rd party shop). It’s better to have your own proof rather than just rely on what a dealer or Holden may say. Obviously Holden can’t know if some owner did an ultratune book service. Such services won’t be reflected on Holden’s system AND Holden may conclude it wasn’t serviced correctly. But in such cases it was serviced correctly via ultratune and thus Holden can’t use lack of service as an excuse to deny warranty. Keep this in mind and get your service report ducks in a row.

If they try and deny warranty when you have proof of correct servicing, let them continue to put the noose around their neck and ask them to provide a written quote for the job with wording as to why you have to pay. If they are stupid enough to do this and state lack of servicing, they have walked off the cliff as Holden’s made and undertaking to ACCC which requires them and their dealers not to do crap like this

So, since they are adamant that the noise is caused by the timing chain, sort out the service situation and get the chain fixed hopefully under statutory warranty. Fixing the timing chain should resolve some starting issues as poor valve timing doesn’t help starts.

Having said all that, I think if the timing change had an issue, you’d get more noise and DTC fault codes popping up. But that doesn’t seem the case from what’s been said previously. So back to fuel pressure, oil suction side o-ring leak, etc, being a potential cause of your hard start issues and all this sudden timing chain talk may simply be a side issue to get Holden off the back.

As for HCC, keep in mind that they have a reputation for being nice and promising to call back but often fail to do such. Ring back and get a commitment that Holden is going to support you with loan car and goodwill repairs for the start issue and now the timing chain issue that the dealer just raised.

 

[snortings]

So both the service manager and family friend came around this morning, got a little more info for you guys. This morning when I started it up the car did the rattle issue instead of the cranking one, I wish they saw the cranking one. I left it on the driveway for about 5 hours after they left, when I just hopped in it before it had trouble starting.

It needs to be done when the car is faulting or it's pointless, it's clearly an intermittent issue that can't be replicated at the dealership.

I mentioned this to them, the service manager agrees that it would be pointless to do unless it was done at the time it was faulting. Though he said they will still do a fuel pressure test on flat ground, just to see if it is within normal operation. I said to him I have primed the fuel pump/lines by turning the key to on and off 5 times (keeping it left on 'on' for 5 seconds). He said well yeah the fuel lines should be pressurised so that stumped them both.

If they are so confident it's the chains say do the chains, if it doesn't fix it I'm not paying a cent.

It’s not listed as a specific serviceable item by Holden so it should need not replaced unless something is buggered (which shouldn’t occur if the service is done according to Holdens schedule).
So, if you have proof of correct servicing (by date and km) and if it is indeed the timing chain, don’t let them convince you it’s simply worn out at 113,000kms and you need to pay - it should be covered by Holden a cording to ACL.

They said before Holden can come to the party for a goodwill they first need to diagnose it before they can take the case to them with their findings. They said I'll have to pay a little first up for the diagnosis, but stated if it is the timing chain (they're going to pull the front case off and look) they will bring it up to Holden and ask if they can cover the cost. He asked what the service history was like, to which the family friend vouched and said that all of it's servicing has been done by the log book and at the Holden Dealership at the correct intervals (by the book at least) as he remembers looking at the service logbook. So if it is the timing chain, they'll say that the car has only done 115,000 kms and has perfect service history so such a fault shouldn't occur. He said they're normally good at paying for it, but wouldn't be surprised if they won't. If they do come to the party, I'll be refunded the whole lot (including diagnosis).

As for HCC, keep in mind that they have a reputation for being nice and promising to call back but often fail to do such. Ring back and get a commitment that Holden is going to support you with loan car and goodwill repairs for the start issue and now the timing chain issue that the dealer just raised.

Yep this is what the service manager said, normally HCC will just pass it onto the dealer and then go 'dead'. He said the only reason they would come 'alive' (in terms of pursuing the case) is if I wasn't happy with something done and contacted them.

------------
So long story short, they're going to find out when they can book the car in and look at the chains by taking the case off. They said it might take about 3 hours work or something, not sure what that was about as they said so many things to me. Apparently to take the sump off and replace the o-ring they have to take the front off (suspension etc apparently) and keep it hanging on by a bolt, then slide the sump out. Though they'll only do this (o-ring) if the timing chains aren't a problem. I did question if it was the timing chains why isn't it happening every time, to which they honestly said they don't know and that's what they find strange.

They did say that the timing kits used to be around $2400 supplied and fitted, but apparently they have come down in price to around $800? @RiCeY can you confirm that?

 

[RiCeY]

To access the oil pickup to change O ring only sump has to come off from memory. If the O ring wasn't sealing there would be low oil pressure all the time at idle from experience. I'm sure the rattle will be the cam actuators at the front of the engine, not the chains.

Front cover will be an overnight job as it's sealant not a gasket which has to cure overnight before putting oil back in.

No idea on pricing I don't deal with that part of the job