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GM.com - Warning of what to expect now under ACL Warranty now Holden is gone.

VCoz

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Thanks Ron, who actually made the diagnosis re 'noisy even at operating temperature' and 'issue with oil pressure'?
Why did 'they' go with short engine and also heads when a long engine may have been cheaper overall as not modded just a standard rebuild - were any of your old lifters reused as unaware what applies in that type of build situation?
I have pushed the GM matter to a new level outside GM Australia:
GM Australia response 'We wish to acknowledge your communication to General Motors has been received from US GM Customer Care. As we have progressed your case to the highest level we will be awaiting further direction from your external reviewer to proceed further'.
GM Australia handle these ACL matters appallingly and not by accident so do we assume with GM.com approval.
 
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Ron Burgundy

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Thanks Ron, who actually made the diagnosis re 'noisy even at operating temperature' and 'issue with oil pressure'?
Why did 'they' go with short engine and also heads when a long engine may have been cheaper overall as not modded just a standard rebuild - were any of your old lifters reused as unaware what applies in that type of build situation?
I have pushed the GM matter to a new level outside GM Australia:
GM Australia response 'We wish to acknowledge your communication to General Motors has been received from US GM Customer Care. As we have progressed your case to the highest level we will be awaiting further direction from your external reviewer to proceed further'.
GM Australia handle these ACL matters appallingly and not by accident so do we assume with GM.com approval.

The dealership diagnosed the issue and based it on external workshop's measurements of factory bores/pistons.

I believe what I got was 'long motor'. Only intake manifold and front accessories were transfered from old engine...
 

VCoz

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@VCoz, any update you can share regarding your piston slap issue?
As I posted recently still underway. It should be noted GM Australia claim this cold start noise I have presented in my videos is normal for LS3 engines - owners of others would know the extent heard in my video is not normal for all LS3's nor characteristic.
'Re our case - yes getting near the end - no-one could ever believe how ACL becomes all about evidence non-disclosure and how problematic evidence can be blocked by the powerful manufacturer that ultimately is responsible for paying Dealers for repairs - bullying seen applies to treatment of both Owners and Dealers. SHAME on a business culture where the Manufacturer attempts to over-ride Consumer Guarantee under Australian Consumer Law by controlling the Dealers accountable under ACL!!! It gets down to a situation where under ACL the owner is fighting a powerful, well resourced and experienced respondent that controls its Dealers and evidence. So much BS and deception which includes GMANZ blocking diagnostics of my vehicle under 'GM proprietary information' label, blocking fault diagnosis made by two Holden Dealers. The BS claim of 'Normal and Characteristic, as designed' (what is GM protecting, other manufacturers building engines that will make this cold start noise?) - will certainly be an interesting hearing. We expect to soon see if BS prevails over ACL or if truth is recognised and acted on. There is much more happening than just this case - while a huge amount of work has been also done 'in the publics interest', we hope that will help other VF2 / LS3 owners in the future and maybe an overall review of the current deficiencies within ACL.'
 

RevNev

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It should be noted GM Australia claim this cold start noise I have presented in my videos is normal for LS3 engines
I'd imagine that you'd need to provide physical evidence that the noise is excessive from piston to bore clearance exceeding the measurements GM specifies in their technical documentation for that engine. The onus at law is generally on the complainant to prove the noise is caused by a manufacturing fault (excessive piston to bore clearance), not the manufacturer proving the noise is normal.
 

Skylarking

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The onus at law is generally on the complainant to prove the noise is caused by a manufacturing fault
ACL requires that goods are of acceptable quality—that is, they are safe, durable and free from defects, are acceptable in appearance and finish and do what they are ordinarily expected to do.

As such, this doesn’t mean that a lack of acceptable quality can only be structured around a manufacturing defect based on parts being outside engineering limits set by the manufacturer. It may be enough for a defect to be formulated around the expectations of an average consumer’s as to what is an acceptable level of noise based on other similar products…

Judges do have ears so if it’s obvious there is excessive noise that’s outside what most would consider normal, such could be considered in good light. Recordings from a number of other LS3’s during their cold start may highlight that the engine in question is indeed abnormal in respect of the noise it produces when cold. And such can also help the argument.

Such lesser argument around average consumer expectations may still be seen in good light, especially if the manufacturer or dealers has block attempts by the owner to seek independent diagnosis. I’d expect that would be more the case if the dealers or manufacturers made false claims that one can’t strip the engine down otherwise they‘d loose warranty. Such false representations don't bode well for them if they’ve behaved in such a shitty manner. And manufacturers hiding behind proprietary information and not disclosing their findings after examining the engine also doesn't bode well and can help in getting costs awarded when/if one wins their case…

So there are many ways to skin that cat (though pointing to measurements of the engine components which have out of spec piston to bore clearances would make things much clearer).

Yes, the onus is always on the complainant to prove their case but proving their case doesn’t have to be via identifyimg the actual reason for the defect via engineering methods, it‘s enough to only prove that a defect exists, no need to prove why it exists.

The only real question the judge needs to resolve is whether such excessive noises during cold start is normal in all LS3’s and acceptable to the average consumer. If such isn’t normal and then considered a defect, the other thing to resolve is whether the manufacturer or seller made buyers aware (before purchase) these LS3’s were noisy during cold start (via statements or advertisements)… If they did, then the defect is not covered by ACL…
 

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ACL requires that goods are of acceptable quality—that is, they are safe, durable and free from defects, are acceptable in appearance and finish and do what they are ordinarily expected to do.

As such, this doesn’t mean that a lack of acceptable quality can only be structured around a manufacturing defect based on parts being outside engineering limits set by the manufacturer. It may be enough for a defect to be formulated around the expectations of an average consumer’s as to what is an acceptable level of noise based on other similar products…
I wouldn't rely on a cold start up noise alone to result in a replacement engine order made under ACL. It's more likely confirming greater noise than other LS3 engines would result in questioning why, particularly with manufacturer engineers defending the case.

Having said the, the noisy LS engines I've heard at start up is lifter noise from lifter taking too long to pump up that have bled down from valve spring pressure and obviously a faulty lifter issue. I'd like to hear a noisy piston slap engine in the flesh to hear how loud the noise is.
 

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@VCoz, any update you can share regarding your piston slap issue?
 

VCoz

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UPDATE: I have been threatened, bullied and prior to hearing given the alternative by GM Australia to withdraw my LS3 engine claim, Major Fault 1 in 7 days and for that ACL avoidance GM will replace what it agreed is a faulty MyLink Hardware unit, Major Fault 2 (electronics problems identified many times under warranty and in the offer agreed faulty by GM Australia). I refused this threat and attempt to divert justice under ACL. I raised my understanding that justice under ACL is not-negotiable to all parties and to QCAT in writing - QCAT remedy was that Fault 2 by GM Australia not considered though QCAT assessor recommended MyLink hardware replacement nor was it part of the decision. Appears, Australian Consumer Law ACL is a joke, and the big corporations regularly in the Tribunals know the system very well (suggest do your own research on their game play and hope for a good adjudicator at Hearing). Major Fault 1 was argued and identified (in writing and video) as not just piston slap - GM claimed (without providing any technical reports or real justification) there were no vehicle faults (GM held reports stating otherwise).

JUSTICE DENIED: QCAT 'Hearing' (if that is what you call it) claimed to act under Australian Consumer Law ACL (if that is what you call it); that process took over 12 months and was just recently completed at 'Hearing' (appalling abuses of power dominate) - I will not have more to say until after my complaint to QCAT President is responded to. When the ACCC were told of the 'Hearing' outcome and process it was shocked (they held all my evidence/submissions) and then out of the blue Q Office of Fair Trading contacted me asking for documents relating to the QCAT Hearing - all very quiet at the moment from all these parties. I am certain something is being looked at in the background (as a systemic issue) - hopefully that may benefit others in the future if they can afford the money and a year to waste seeking Dealers to honour Warranty obligations when the Manufacturer really by refusing to reimburse them can block those warranty repairs. The dealers won't take the Manufacturers to QCAT as ACL expects - nor risk upsetting the supplier/manufacturer - hence risking its business for a customer.
ACL under QCAT, as I understand it from the QCAT Member's words - if you can start your vehicle, travel on a nominated day between point A and point B without breaking down and then can stop the vehicle, under ACL there is no major fault with the vehicle.
In the Member controlled 'Hearing' the submission evidence and diagnosis confirming excessive abnormal engine noise by 2 Holden dealers and RACQ was not discussed (I have no idea if it was even read) - we the Applicants were not given the opportunity to question the Respondents (two of Australia's largest Corporations), yet they were given the opportunity to question us (wisely they abstained, as that would have opened disclosure discussion) - came down to Holden (knowing otherwise) claiming in submission that if there was an abnormal engine noise one of those parties and that includes Holden would have heard it. GM Australia have 3 of the four referred to Authorised representatives written confirmations of abnormal engine noise requiring major repair - and video evidence is held by all parties - it appears real evidence has little bearing in ACL decisions. The diagnosis by GM Australia carried out in/with the dealership totally contradicted the dealer's own diagnosis. The report like all GM such evidence was withheld from QCAT (proprietary information BS) - the GM Australia's less than 60 second diagnosis 'test' was from dash cam video shown to be both false and misleading sham (dealer diagnosis pre-GM overriding it, GM 'testing' video and report summary may be posted here at a later date). Instead of trying to understand technical issues, the colour of the car seemed more significant to the Tribunal Member adjudication on technical issues he had no apparent understanding of. It gets worse, but that will need to be for another day - FYI to appeal (self-review in same tribunal) in QCAT would cost around $2500 in costs (before a lawyer's costs). The moral of the story is to only buy a new vehicle from a manufacturer/dealership you believe can be trusted to honour their warranty. I have to decide at some future point if I seek criminal action against one or more party (details not disclosed here).

Conclusion - As ACL is a joke; I would never ever buy a GM product again as risk is too great - nor trust GM Australia or whatever it may call itself next. I believe GM have demonstrated it should not be allowed to sell vehicles in Australia. (Either direct to consumers (as likely in the future with EV's) or through subservient Dealers (that do whatever the manufacturer demands).

NEXT UPDATE: Please hang off on seeking more comment at this time as I need to wait for responses and then raise those responses further (necessary before I disclose key details publicly). My experience from reading transcripts is that Australian ACL in QCAT is nothing like the NZ Consumer Law equivalent Tribunal Hearing (re recent VF V8 piston slap documented successful case would from my experiences the outcome would not be likely to occur in QCAT).
When I applied to QCAT under ACL my vehicle had around 38,000km on it and was still under full factory Warranty. Shame on those involved in this denial of repair of identified faults under warranty - my Holden Manufacturer's Warranty under the current GM Australia was proven worthless - as is ACL Comsumer rights when even Full Warranty can be overridden by the manufacturer to prevent it repairing costly vehicle Dealer Warranty requests. There were no grey areas for GM to seek loopholes in this case - low km, only serviced by Holden Dealers - well identified and confirmed claims validated under warranty.
 
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