GMH needs funding to stay in OZ

[Reaper]

At the end of the day, I don't have the depth of knowledge to completely validate my view one way or another, its a conflicting argument which needs balance. Good to see some talk about it, get people thinking about local situations for a moment.

Dave

Lol - your posts on the subject seem better thought out than plenty in this thread/forum

Reaper

 

[BowTie]

Your getting bogged down in details that appear to make it ok for a large company like GM to threaten SA with economic harm unless they pay them cash.

GFC, GM were the biggest cry babies looking for handouts and too stupid too stop flying around in jets while asking for tax dollars.

It worked. Now they have decided that a good business model for profitability is to use their economic and market power to threaten and blackmail the public.

PAY US CASH OR WE WILL #### YOUR ECONOMY AND YOU CANT STOP US.

Mitsubishi pulled the same stunt for the entire time in SA and pushed it to the point where their presence in the state was financially worthless to the people. OH, we cant survive unless you give us tax breaks and handouts and if you dont well #### your economy.

Eventually everyone in SA told Mitsi to pack up, #### off and dont bother coming back.

Threatening our economy is how holden have decided to prop up their shareholder profit margins.

I dont care if that is the staus quo and they all do it. It's ####ed.

You try and use similiar power to influence the stock market for profit and you will be in prison before the end of the week.

 

[MasterOfReality]

Unless I'm missing something, why are auto workers treated as a protected species?

Its open slather on the mining industry at the moment, with the government and the greens telling us that mining workers will just have to adopt and change industries if the carbon tax/mining tax results in mine closures.

What makes it so different?

I'm not that into the auto industry, so I would would appreciate if someone could fill me in so I understand this better.

 

[Full Spectrum]

If Holden and Ford stop working everyone is out of a job. No going to the competitor it's move into a new job field or move country. Same with the suppliers. Designers and there's plenty of them in Melbourne working on local and global projects would be sacked/relocated (like it or not) overseas.

More the biggest danger isn't if Holden or Ford end up with a Large FWD car. It's if they don't design or build a car at all here. If that happens then all government funding should be withdrawn. It might say Holden is GM owned, but by god our governments have paid enough to own it many times over.

 

[vrollin]

I'm a reasonably senior manager at one of Australia's top universities.

One of my mates was a senior manager at a top university, he looked after the janitors...

 

[Full Spectrum]

One of my mates was a senior manager at a top university, he looked after the janitors...

My brother in-law is the senior manger at a high school in such and such. His kids call him the janitor.

 

[NickVR]

I don't know if this is a do-able suggestion or not but if Australia was to raise Tariffs on vehicles produced overseas to help force people to buy local would this help? Also the money made from the increased tariffs can be used to give back to the automotive industry that produce vehicles in Australia (obviously not all but some if not most). Then if you buy an imported car you still help out Australian manufacturing and if you buy Australian produced vehicles it's even better again. Does this seem like a solution and if not why would this not work?

According to this article rates were dropped by half only 2 years ago. From 10% to 5%, why was this done?

Just my thoughts not sure how valid they are but thought I'd throw it out there.

Edit: Found this article which says to me that it won't work with some automotive brands.

Edit Take 2: A clip from this article shows the Chinese government did something to help it's local manufacturers. Not sure why we (australia) couldn't do this.

"The decision was the latest retribution inflicted in a series of trade disputes that has recently arisen between China and the US.

Chinese authorities, saying US imports were "damaging the local car industry", imposed the new tariffs on these companies or operations: General Motors Co (GM); Chrysler Group LLC; Mercedes-Benz US International Inc; BMW AG's factory in Spartanburg, South Carolina; and Honda of America Manufacturing Co."

 

[Reaper]

Your getting bogged down in details that appear to make it ok for a large company like GM to threaten SA with economic harm unless they pay them cash.

Not what so ever. Actually (for this forum) it appears to be a relatively civilized discussion on the subject. The bottom line is that if Australia doesn't have some sort of protectionist policy for the auto industry they will leave because every other country making cars does.

GFC, GM were the biggest cry babies looking for handouts and too stupid too stop flying around in jets while asking for tax dollars.

??? GM and Chrysler were bankrupt. The US government and UAE took over them both and re-established new companies which they are gradually selling off. Chances are (over time) the US government will make a tidy earn over the whole deal. It has happened a few times in the past.

It worked. Now they have decided that a good business model for profitability is to use their economic and market power to threaten and blackmail the public

Governments have pushed for auto makers to set up in their countries/states/whatever for as long as there has been a car industry. The first Holden 48/215 was as a direct result of government tipping in a heap of $$$ to get GM to build cars here.

PAY US CASH OR WE WILL #### YOUR ECONOMY AND YOU CANT STOP US.

Mitsubishi pulled the same stunt for the entire time in SA and pushed it to the point where their presence in the state was financially worthless to the people. OH, we cant survive unless you give us tax breaks and handouts and if you dont well #### your economy.

Eventually everyone in SA told Mitsi to pack up, #### off and dont bother coming back.

Mitsubishi was producing a mediocre car with limited local R&D input (read none!), had zero export potential, one body style and down around 2500 (IIRC) units a month. Mitsubishi could not survive whatever the tax breaks were on such a poor local product portfolio. Firstly, should GM, Ford and Toyota stop local production, Australia's economy will still be strong although unemployment will spike for the short/medium term.

Threatening our economy is how holden have decided to prop up their shareholder profit margins.

If Holden really wanted to up their profit, your humble Commodore would be built in Thailand or Korea. After the current generation ended it would be FWD and look suspiciously like an Impala. There would be no local production of the Cruze either.

Unless I'm missing something, why are auto workers treated as a protected species?

Its open slather on the mining industry at the moment, with the government and the greens telling us that mining workers will just have to adopt and change industries if the carbon tax/mining tax results in mine closures.

What makes it so different?

I'm not that into the auto industry, so I would would appreciate if someone could fill me in so I understand this better.

The difference is that Australia is *very* lucky in that there are only limited countries world wide with our resources. Most of the other places that have similar availability are very unstable politically and you need a small army to defend the actual mining operation from the local generals who all pack AK47's. Our relative close proximity to China also helps too. This is a huge competitive advantage for Australia and thus government assistance is not needed. On the contrary - every man and his dog are clambering to figure out how to get a slice of the gravy train.

I don't know if this is a do-able suggestion or not but if Australia was to raise Tariffs on vehicles produced overseas to help force people to buy local would this help? Also the money made from the increased tariffs can be used to give back to the automotive industry that produce vehicles in Australia (obviously not all but some if not most). Then if you buy an imported car you still help out Australian manufacturing and if you buy Australian produced vehicles it's even better again. Does this seem like a solution and if not why would this not work?

According to this article rates were dropped by half only 2 years ago. From 10% to 5%, why was this done?

Just my thoughts not sure how valid they are but thought I'd throw it out there.

Edit: Found this article which says to me that it won't work with some automotive brands.

Edit Take 2: A clip from this article shows the Chinese government did something to help it's local manufacturers. Not sure why we (australia) couldn't do this.

"The decision was the latest retribution inflicted in a series of trade disputes that has recently arisen between China and the US.

Chinese authorities, saying US imports were "damaging the local car industry", imposed the new tariffs on these companies or operations: General Motors Co (GM); Chrysler Group LLC; Mercedes-Benz US International Inc; BMW AG's factory in Spartanburg, South Carolina; and Honda of America Manufacturing Co."

Tarriffs can be dangerous. For decades Australian manufacturers were lazy due to high import tariffs on cars which gave the locals no incentive to push the boundaries of good design and quality with the local product. Compare the VK 202 with the VL 3 litre six that followed it. They were light years apart. The only reason that motor came about was because of the introduction of unleaded fuel. In general as the protection of our local industry came down, the standard of our local offerings has gone up.

Further to that, for some reason for 15 years or so we have only been building cars here in the large end of the market (size wise). This is declining with the unrelenting push for fuel efficiency. Holden have recently changed their local production mix to include the smaller Cruze which will boost volumes in South Australia. Also, as the world economic outlook improves, exports of the Commodore will also pick up again. That is more a timing issue - I hope the recovery is in time to give GM confidence to run the program beyond this decade. As for Ford, they are downsizing the Falcon motor with a turbo 4 being offered shortly. I'm not so sure that's the right move - time will tell. Unfortunately Detroit have a very long and stella track record in product planing for Ford Aus with the turbo 6 motors about all they have got right. Ditching the wagon, LWB sedans and XR8 models, whilst each only a small niche just keeps eroding away at the overall volumes running thru Broadmeadows. Even the Territory which was an excellent vehicle when released went way too long between updates. The current offering is very good but the TD is old and I hope gets updated sooner rather than later.

Reaper

 

[dmacey]

Some insight

HOLDEN Early history
In 1852, James Alexander Holden emigrated to South Australia from Walsall, England and in 1856 established J.A. Holden & Co, a saddlery business in Adelaide. In 1885 German born Henry Frederick Frost joined the business as a junior partner and J.A. Holden & Co turned into Holden & Frost Ltd. Edward Holden, James' grandson, joined the firm in 1905 with an interest in automobiles. From there, the firm evolved through various partnerships and, in 1908, Holden and Frost moved into the business of minor repairs to car upholstery. The company began to produce complete motorcycle sidecar bodies in 1913, and Edward experimented with fitting bodies to different types of carriages. After 1917, wartime trade restrictions led the company to start full-scale production of vehicle body shells. J.A. Holden founded a new company in 1919, Holden's Motor Body Builders Ltd (HMBB) specialising in car bodies and utilising a facility on King Wiliam Street in Adelaide. By 1923, HMBB were producing 12,000 units per year. During this time, HMBB was the first company to assemble bodies for Ford Australia until their Geelong, plant was completed. From 1924, HMBB became the exclusive supplier of car bodies for GM in Australia, with manufacturing taking place at the new Woodville, South Australia plant. These bodies were made to suit a number of chassis imported from manufacturers such as Chevrolet and Dodge. In 1926 General Motors (Australia) was established with assembly plants at Newstead, Queensland; Marrickville, New South Wales; City Road, Melbourne, Victoria; Birkenhead, South Australia; and Cottesloe, Western Australia utilizing bodies produced by Holden Motor Body Builders and imported complete knock down (CKD) chassis. The Great Depression era led to a substantial downturn in production by Holden, from 34,000 units annually in 1930 to just 1,651 units one year later. In 1931 General Motors purchased Holden Motor Body Builders and merged it with General Motors (Australia) Pty Ltd to form General Motors-Holden's Ltd (GM-H).

Holden was established and took a big hit, I think assurance form automakers to stay, is only given when receiving assistance. The cycle can't be broken, there is always going to be a cheaper place to make it, and a better product to buy. I don't agree with it but understand its necessary for them to stay and keep Aussies in work. Look at what Hinzes has done, moved to NZ because of better incentives.

Dave

 

[Drawnnite]

Errrr... Pay people with no skills in **** kicker jobs LESS!

so im bringing this quote up again.

look at it this way.
everyone wants a suit, office and massively high education.

yet i went into an industry (trade) and in the first year have taken home more $'s then most professionals.
why you ask?
because no one wants to get their hands dirty..... (or wake at 5am =P)

its the same with manufacturing etc.
the less people who want to do it because "eww its dirty" the more you can ask for it.


however back on topic.
i hope holden stays in aus.
look back through history its like the iconic aussie car.
it would be like loosing the union jack on your AUS flag.
some may say its for the better. some for the worse.

pretty much there are pros and cons. and until every single pro and con is weighed up then a decision can be made.
also that $500 from every overseas car should be made to say $2000 and call it in import tax =P