Welcome to Just Commodores, a site specifically designed for all people who share the same passion as yourself.

New Posts Contact us

Just Commodores Forum Community

It takes just a moment to join our fantastic community

Register

[VT-VX] How To Increase Alternator Output Voltage

Jolls

Donating Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2017
Messages
941
Reaction score
1,622
Points
93
Location
Murrumbateman
Members Ride
VY SS Ute (Jimi Hendrix)
The example shows the detriment of voltage drop in a standard 12 volt system.

Not as I read it. (see below.) He purchased the 16V alternator and battery but did not run the alternator n the testing. Baseline was a standard alternator at 14V. 6hp drop with fully charged 12V battery no alternator so it is operating at 12V and below from the start. Then other 6hp loss with a 12V battery at 3/4 charge and no alternator then a 16V battery with no alternator.added 6hp over baseline.

What the OP indicated is that with a standard 12V system in a race car at the end of the race the battery is not fully charged and the VD is detrimental to performance. If the alternator is not producing enough charge to maintain the battery in race conditions it is not sized correctly for the task - power demand exceeds output. If he increases the alternator size to combat this it will come at the cost of reduced hp to drive it. (no free power). Interesting 3/4 of 16V is 12V - the magic number to drive the components.

In race applications there are other electrcial systems that can be used - total loss systems , magnetos etc. It is not really a comparable scenario to a six banger commodore or an LS1 on a skid pan.

I'm not saying increasing the voltage can't be benficial - especially in a race/performance situation. I am simply trying to ascertain what benefit this provides to joe average and if it is worth investing the time and effort.


Thanks everyone, I have purchased a powermaster race 16v alternator so all good. Smitty, I did a thorough dyno session with a super sedan engine a while back, baseline was with the dyno battery and alternator around 14v. Then tested with a fully charged 12v battery and no alternator, lost about 5-6 hp. Then a 3/4 charged 12v battery no alternator, lost another 5-6 hp, this test simulated what the output would be at the end of a race. Then a fully charged 16v race battery, no alternator, picked up 6 hp over the 12v with alternator combo.
This was with MSD ignition and simulated race set up how it is raced with no alternator. I am going this way for my own drag car and 6 hp is 6 hp, I am picky with things like that.
 
Last edited:

shane_3800

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
4,223
Reaction score
1,798
Points
113
Age
35
Location
places
Members Ride
vr commo
The higher the volts more current will flow.
If you're using 40 amps of your 65 amp alternator there will be VD in the system as there is resistance from the 40 amp worth of load. If you increase the voltage the load will have the same VD but will appear like it has less VD and will be flowing more current.
This means you will use more watts so you gain more power at the load and the alternator is still within it's limits.
 

shane_3800

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
4,223
Reaction score
1,798
Points
113
Age
35
Location
places
Members Ride
vr commo
Get your multi meter put it on your battery. Take some readings as you add loads and keep adding more load and record the results.
 

Jolls

Donating Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2017
Messages
941
Reaction score
1,622
Points
93
Location
Murrumbateman
Members Ride
VY SS Ute (Jimi Hendrix)
The higher the volts more current will flow.
If you're using 40 amps of your 65 amp alternator there will be VD in the system as there is resistance from the 40 amp worth of load. If you increase the voltage the load will have the same VD but will appear like it has less VD and will be flowing more current.
This means you will use more watts so you gain more power at the load and the alternator is still within it's limits.

Not how electricity works. If you increase the voltsge it will draw less current. The power (watts) is constant.

P=VI - at 14.4V the power consumed is 14.4V x 40A = 576W

If you add the diode and take it to 15V output the current will reduce as the load has not changed - it will still require 576W to power it

I=P/V so 576W/15V = 38.4A - less current is required as more voltage has been applied.

This 15V is now overcharging your battery - it won't kill it today but you won't be getting 4 years out of it either. It is a slow and painful death for the poor old thing.

The draw on the alternator's power has not changed - theoretically. In practive you need to provide additional power to the field windings in order to increase the magnetic field to produce the additional voltage so the motor has to work harder to drive the armature to cut the field so the additioanl power requred to do this comes from the engine (motive power) not the alternator Nothing is free.

The resistance is constant regardless of the voltage - resistance from the cables and components does not change (theoretically) however, heat and other variables come into effect in real life situations.
 

Immortality

Can't live without smoky bacon!
Staff member
Joined
Apr 15, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
20,525
Points
113
Location
Sth Auck, NZ
Members Ride
HSV VS Senator, VX Calais II L67
Not as I read it. (see below.) He purchased the 16V alternator and battery but did not run the alternator n the testing. Baseline was a standard alternator at 14V. 6hp drop with fully charged 12V battery no alternator so it is operating at 12V and below from the start. Then other 6hp loss with a 12V battery at 3/4 charge and no alternator then a 16V battery with no alternator.added 6hp over baseline.

What the OP indicated is that with a standard 12V system in a race car at the end of the race the battery is not fully charged and the VD is detrimental to performance. If the alternator is not producing enough charge to maintain the battery in race conditions it is not sized correctly for the task - power demand exceeds output. If he increases the alternator size to combat this it will come at the cost of reduced hp to drive it. (no free power). Interesting 3/4 of 16V is 12V - the magic number to drive the components.

In race applications there are other electrcial systems that can be used - total loss systems , magnetos etc. It is not really a comparable scenario to a six banger commodore or an LS1 on a skid pan.

I'm not saying increasing the voltage can't be benficial - especially in a race/performance situation. I am simply trying to ascertain what benefit this provides to joe average and if it is worth investing the time and effort.

Some drag racers run without the alternator connected because they argue the parasitic loss of the alternator on the engine is greater than the performance loss of the reduced power from the battery alone. The example above also shows that at 12volts (battery only and should be about 12.8 volts on a fully charged battery) you are already loosing power over the conventional standard 14 volt alternator.

I watched a video recently of a drag car that lost the drive belt at about 1/2 track but the driver didn't realise. On the following run they realised as they staged the car but elected to still run the race. By 3/4 track the voltage had dropped enough that the electric fuel pump lost enough flow to lean out the motor and cause a decent pop through the exhaust. The chart I posted earlier shows a 100lb/hr loss for 13.5 volts down to 12 volts (The A1000 is a big pump), that sort of loss of flow on EFI would screw up your tune. On old school motors running carburettors and low pressure pumps the loss of flow would be considerably less.

With EFI systems fuel pressure is critical, high volume, high pressure pumps consume a lot of power.

In my case, I'm getting to the upper end of what the factory pump can supply, I'm pushing the ignition system much harder than ever intended. I could compromise and run a smaller plug gap due to higher boost but that compromises other engine tuning characteristics that I'm not will to sacrifice so I could invest a lot of coin into another ignition system, I could spend a lot of coin on a bigger fuel pump or as I have done, I spent about NZ$4 on this little mod and can get just a little more from what I already have which gives me a safety margin.

Your major concern seems to be with cooking batteries, I don't think this will be a major issue with a small bump in system voltage but I guess only time will tell.
 

Skylarking

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Messages
10,114
Reaction score
10,562
Points
113
Age
123
Location
Downunder
Members Ride
Commodore Motorsport Edition
... I have not ever said it doesn't work I asked "to whar end". Apart from the fuel pump example - to which I believe upgrading the pump is a better solution - there has been no other valid reason provided for doing so provided...
Useful in a dual battery setup where diode isolators are used; post #36 ;)
 

Pollushon

Boost gives me a bar....
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
3,745
Reaction score
2,848
Points
113
Location
Canberra
Members Ride
VY SS
Here's my magna. Uses the same 130amp alternator as my VY SS. Jolls your fixation on the laws is holding you back. Let's be clear, there is more than enough amps to go round and then some so forget laws, focus on the use case. Mine runs 90a idle and hits peak after 2500rpm.

Idle
pic3.jpg

Add lights and radio
pic1.jpg

Add aircon
pic2.jpg


There's no shortage of amps. What I'm losing is voltage. I'm losing tension because I'm adding more current (there's the laws). Now add a bunch more systems and I'll eventually drop to an unhealthy level to keep my battery charged. I only need a couple amps but what I really need is voltage.

As for overcharging a car specific SLA that's ridiculous. I don't think you understand the type of battery it is. The higher end of the power spectrum will prolong its life. If you've ever used a battery recovery charger after calcification has corrupted it you'd understand what I'm talking about
 
Last edited:

Immortality

Can't live without smoky bacon!
Staff member
Joined
Apr 15, 2006
Messages
22,633
Reaction score
20,525
Points
113
Location
Sth Auck, NZ
Members Ride
HSV VS Senator, VX Calais II L67
Slightly off topic, but where did you get that little gauge from? I want one...

edit: Amazon? I think I found it.

I think all cars should have a volt gauge as it's a sure fire way to see if something is going amiss before total failure of the electrical system.
 
Last edited:

Pollushon

Boost gives me a bar....
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
3,745
Reaction score
2,848
Points
113
Location
Canberra
Members Ride
VY SS
It was eBay or Amazon. I went through a couple til I found this which I tested is proper accurate. I agree, it's how I identified my rectifier was dodgy long before it left my battery flat
 

chrisp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
1,876
Reaction score
4,997
Points
113
Location
Melbourne Victoria
Members Ride
VF2 MY16 SS Redline Sportwagon
Interesting mod. I haven’t read though all the posts in detail but I saw a few posts asking ‘why?‘ or what the is the benefit of this modification.

The car’s charging system should regulate the voltage to the battery but there are a couple of compromises in some systems.

To charge a battery properly (to maximise it’s life) the charge voltage voltage (often called the ToC Voltage - top of charge voltage) needs to adjusted according to the temperature of the battery. This is called ‘temperature compensation’. The typical temperature compensation is about -3mV/degree C per cell. So about -18mV/C for a 12 V battery. i.e. the charging voltage should be reduced as the temperature increases.

Unfortunately, many charging systems take a shortcut with the temperature compensation. Instead of placing a temperature sensor on the actual battery, they place the temperature sensor within the alternator. The alternator will typically run much hotter than the battery, so the temperature compensation circuit drops the voltage to the battery as it is assuming that the temperature of the battery is the same as the temperature of the alternator.

The diode-in-the-voltage-sense-wire modification is a simple way of bumping the voltage up a bit to compensate for the compromised temperature-compensation. It’s not ideal as it isn’t addressing the cause of the problem, but it’s probably better than a soggy charging system.
 
Top