Who paid for their first car

[Acclaimed VS]

Given you've only owned one car I'm not sure what you're basing that claim off, but it's just not true.

The VE has a lot of electronic wizardry in, like TC/ESC, which takes a lot of the human variability out of the equation and levels the playing field considerably, so the VE might now be such a bad car for new drivers as the older models were. All that said the fact still stands that power understeer, as you'd have in a FWD is a much easier situation to correct than power oversteer.

Go find yourself an Excel and a VN Commodore, give each one a flog around a sharp corner in the rain and you'll quickly change your tune.

As for safety features - like what? A Corolla hatch has a better ANCAP rating than your SV6.

I'd have no problem with my children driving a roadworthy commodore. If you can't handle a V6 in the wet driving sensibly and to the limitations of the road then you shouldn't be on the road at all.

People go on about how unsafe they are but at the end of the day the are no weapon and easily manageable by anyone if your head is screwed on right.

 

[johnnylord]

i saved up all my hard earned cash and bought......a daihatsu charade. 3cyl 1L of fury!!!!
cost me $1,000 and ran on $25 of petrol for a full tank. lasted almost 2 weeks - but that was back wen fuel was barely $1 a litre.

oh those were the days...im so glad im in something much more enjoyable now tho (even if fuel is a bitch)

 

[kuzman89]

Given you've only owned one car I'm not sure what you're basing that claim off, but it's just not true.

The VE has a lot of electronic wizardry in, like TC/ESC, which takes a lot of the human variability out of the equation and levels the playing field considerably, so the VE might now be such a bad car for new drivers as the older models were. All that said the fact still stands that power understeer, as you'd have in a FWD is a much easier situation to correct than power oversteer.

Go find yourself an Excel and a VN Commodore, give each one a flog around a sharp corner in the rain and you'll quickly change your tune.

As for safety features - like what? A Corolla hatch has a better ANCAP rating than your SV6.

Owning a car and having driven a good 30+ work vehicles then friends cars, family cars and even a few high spec cars like amg mercs and similiar gives me more then enough to base that claim on.
Sorry, but anyone saying that fwd is easier to handle then rwd is nuts. There is a reason rwd is preffered to fwd, rwd being ALOT easier to handle and correct.
My VE has 5 star safety rating just like a corolla, the thing you forget with big cars is that they have 'passive' safety features. Big cars generally are much safer then small cars of the same year, better crumple zones, heavier so less likely to move around in high winds etc at high speeds, easier to control at high speeds and plenty more. I do not understand how some parents can put their kids in those little hyundais and other small cars. Not so much the newer cars, but even then.

 

[vnbuick]

my first car was a hillman avenger lowered on wide tridents with eagers

i was 15 had no lisence and hadnt even heard of ownership papers

i just used to sit on the fence and look at it for hours dreaming of what it could be if only i had the money lol

all it cost me was an old 5120i nokia and a bb gun

 

[danja]

I'd have no problem with my children driving a roadworthy commodore. If you can't handle a V6 in the wet driving sensibly and to the limitations of the road then you shouldn't be on the road at all.

People go on about how unsafe they are but at the end of the day the are no weapon and easily manageable by anyone if your head is screwed on right.

In theory, sure, but in reality kids tend to take more risks, and have less experience to know what the limits of the car are. You have less margin for error compared to more tame cars - it's not something I'd be in a hurry to put my kids in personally.

Sorry, but anyone saying that fwd is easier to handle then rwd is nuts. There is a reason rwd is preffered to fwd, rwd being ALOT easier to handle and correct.

Mate, that is so far wrong I just don't know where to begin. If you get into terminal oversteer, thankfully something you probably don't know much about thanks to the clever TC/ESP gadgets I mentioned earlier, it's actually quite hard to get out of. Most people will instinctively take their foot off the accelerator, which will cause a sudden weight transfer forwards, further reducing rear wheel grip. At that point the back of the car is swinging around, and you're battling it with counter-steering, quite a difficult technique to get right. You need a lot of sideways room to "catch" the back of the car, otherwise you can expect quite an expensive repair bill.

By contrast, in a FWD car, if you get terminal understeer, the car is going straight rather than turning, you get off the accelerator and the weight goes forward onto the wheels without traction, giving them the grip they need and the car then turns normally. Disaster averted, nothing more to it.

It's pretty clear that you haven't experienced either of these situations, otherwise there is no way you'd be saying what you're saying.

My VE has 5 star safety rating just like a corolla, the thing you forget with big cars is that they have 'passive' safety features. Big cars generally are much safer then small cars of the same year, better crumple zones, heavier so less likely to move around in high winds etc at high speeds, easier to control at high speeds and plenty more. I do not understand how some parents can put their kids in those little hyundais and other small cars. Not so much the newer cars, but even then.

ANCAP ratings measure actual crash performance, so whatever "passive" features you have (crumple zones etc) intrinsically form part of the result. They do both have a 5-star rating, but if you look at the detailed assessments, the Corolla comes out on top.

 

[kuzman89]

Keep having cheap shots at my driving ability yet know nothing about me. Only way to win an arguement? :banstick:

RWD- Go into a corner at a reasonable speed, (legal), the front end is slowly starting to go wide abit, step on the pedal, add abit of power and the front swings back in, the car gets rigid and cornering traction increases. Balance ensues between the turning power from the front and pushing power of the rear. In a fwd car any semblance of control is out the window, step on the pedal and things get mushy and dangerous up front.

Rwd with front wheels doing the steering and back wheels pushing the car along you dont get torque steer, better acceleration, better wieght distribution, close to 50/50. You get better, more predictable handling. And with traction control in most newer VE's and other rwd cars, the advantage in slippery conditions is about the same.
I wonder why most performance cars use rwd? Better handling thats why. Seems -you- don't know what your talking about.

I'm struggling to understand why you even bother driving a commodore, they are unsafe, handle like boat anchors and you think everyone who drives one is a hoon :blah blah:

 

[danja]

Keep having cheap shots at my driving ability yet know nothing about me. Only way to win an arguement? :banstick:

Can you please point to the bit where I said anything about your driving ability? Quite the reverse, you seem to be a veritable Michael Schumacher because you're so good and in-control that you've never experienced either terminal understeer, or oversteer.

RWD- Go into a corner at a reasonable speed, (legal), the front end is slowly starting to go wide abit, step on the pedal, add abit of power and the front swings back in, the car gets rigid and cornering traction increases.

Balance ensues between the turning power from the front and pushing power of the rear. In a fwd car any semblance of control is out the window, step on the pedal and things get mushy and dangerous up front.

Rwd with front wheels doing the steering and back wheels pushing the car along you dont get torque steer, better acceleration, better wieght distribution, close to 50/50. You get better, more predictable handling. And with traction control in most newer VE's and other rwd cars, the advantage in slippery conditions is about the same.
I wonder why most performance cars use rwd? Better handling thats why. Seems -you- don't know what your talking about.

I'm not debating the relative merits of FWD vs RWD in motorsport (though seeing as you're so interested, read this) - I would tend to agree that most sports cars are better off being RWD, though your explanations as to why are pretty woeful.

What I am saying however, is that when you **** up and mash the happy pedal too hard around a wet corner, you're much more likely to escape unscathed in a FWD car than a RWD.

It's crystal clear from what you've said so far, that regardless of the "30+" cars you've driven, you've only driven your SV6 extensively, and that because it's so full of gadgets to do the driving for you and remove the potential for driver **** up, you simply don't have the experience to make a call on how the different configurations behave at their real, un-moderated by computer, limits. Deal with it.

I'm struggling to understand why you even bother driving a commodore, they are unsafe, handle like boat anchors and you think everyone who drives one is a hoon :blah blah:

Grow up kid, is this how you "win" your arguments, with sarcastic misrepresentations?

 

[kuzman89]

Can you please point to the bit where I said anything about your driving ability? Quite the reverse, you seem to be a veritable Michael Schumacher because you're so good and in-control that you've never experienced either terminal understeer, or oversteer.

So now I'm a great driver? Naww thanks :beer chug:

I'm not debating the relative merits of FWD vs RWD in motorsport (though seeing as you're so interested, read this) - I would tend to agree that most sports cars are better off being RWD, though your explanations as to why are pretty woeful.

What a woeful response, read this: Why rear-wheel drive is coming back. - By Mickey Kaus - Slate Magazine and the other trillion articles on the internet.

What I am saying however, is that when you **** up and mash the happy pedal too hard around a wet corner, you're much more likely to escape unscathed in a FWD car than a RWD.

Not true, read what I wrote above.

It's crystal clear from what you've said so far, that regardless of the "30+" cars you've driven, you've only driven your SV6 extensively, and that because it's so full of gadgets to do the driving for you and remove the potential for driver **** up, you simply don't have the experience to make a call on how the different configurations behave at their real, un-moderated by computer, limits. Deal with it.

You think you know me :rofl2: the amount of cars i've driven for my age would most likely put you too shame. It's 'crystal clear' you haven't a clue when it comes to me or my driving ability/experience

"Grow up kid." :spew:

Grow up kid, is this how you "win" your arguments, with sarcastic misrepresentations?

I'm just repeating what you've said in several different threads. :blah blah:

Anyway, believe what you want, nothing unsafe about driving a big rwd commodore. :smoking:

back on topic

 

[danja]

There's a reason why they say "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit"... but moving on, have you actually read that article?!? It's basically confirming everything I've been trying to explain to you:

Front-drive cars have better traction in slippery conditions.

What's the best way to fly off the road? Safety types prefer frontwards -- understeer. Why? To control an oversteering skid, where the rear wheels are heading for the weeds, you have to both slow down and counterintuitively turn the wheel in the opposite of the direction you're turning. In a front-drive car, with the front wheels slipping, you slow down and keep turning the way you'd been turning to get around the corner in the first place -- a more natural maneuver, since you're pointing the car in the direction you want to go.

I challenge you to find a single decent article which claims rear-wheel skids are easier to correct than front-wheel skids.

By the way, if you insist on getting to a wang-jerking contest about cars you've driven, I used to work in a car wash in a rich neighbourhood when I was on my L's/P's (before there were such things as performance restrictions). I've driven high-end Merc's, BMW's, Porsche's, even Ferarri's and Bentley's, and plenty other less exotic cars. Hundreds of them. I'm not going to sit here and claim to be an expert on the handling balance of a 993 Carerra though, because it takes a lot of quality time behind the wheel, in a variety of conditions, to get any meaningful feel for how a car behaves. Driving one around the block might be nice to brag about, but doesn't mean much really.

 

[kuzman89]

What a 'woeful' response.

But I'm curious, whats the reason?

rwd is more predictable, easier to control, better balanced car, so many more pro's then fwd. I already mentioned fwd lost most of it advantage in the wet due to better active safety features in cars... next?

I don't care about rwd v fwd "skids" i'm talking about the safety in general.

Balance, center of gravity, torque steer, weight shift, oversteer" and the semi-orgasmic lock-in effect all suck arse in a fwd. Read the article I posted again, we can all be google warriors lol

By the way, if you insist on getting to a wang-jerking contest about cars you've driven, I used to work in a car wash in a rich neighbourhood when I was on my L's/P's (before there were such things as performance restrictions). I've driven high-end Merc's, BMW's, Porsche's, even Ferarri's and Bentley's, and plenty other less exotic cars. Hundreds of them. I'm not going to sit here and claim to be an expert on the handling balance of a 993 Carerra though, because it takes a lot of quality time behind the wheel, in a variety of conditions, to get any meaningful feel for how a car behaves. Driving one around the block might be nice to brag about

Well thats settled, I do have more driving experience in different cars then you. Exactly, nothing to brag about danje ahaha, I drive the cars at my work for more then a few weeks at a time. I'm really starting to question whether your experience in this discussion is even relevant.