Year 2000 Holden Engineering report

[Skylarking]

Toyobaru is the exact same car barring a few minor suspension settings & paint-colours, that’s more like badge engineering …

I thought there were some panel and lighting differences but I could be mixing it up with the Mazda MX5 and Fiat 124 spider

Mega dollars don’t even help, you can’t buy a manual supercar any more for example, I doubt Lamborghini or Ferrari even offer a manual?.

Haven’t walked into a Ferrari to Lamborghini supercar show room so not sure what they sell but I suspect it’s all double clutch. I have read that Porsche still sells manual

I guess mega dollars is relative but even at the $150k mark it’s slim pickings if you want a manual

PS: as a disclaimer, I should have bought a manual ‘dore but my stuffed knee and shoulder had me thinking it wasn’t a great choice so bought an auto which sadly was the only option at the time. Still love the MSE auto but regret not searching harder and finding/getting a manual.

 

[RevNev]

I'm surprised with you saying the M3 & M4 will still sustain a good thrashing, I'd heard rumour & innuendo about them going soft ... that you basically had to buy a Porsche for that now,

What goes soft? I think there was 8 or 9 competing in the Bathurst 6 hour and they all finished. They rarely ever retire from sprint racing either. The M4 GT4 race car has a mechanical lock diff centre instead of electric, bigger drive shafts, coil over shocks and different front uprights and control arms and catless exhaust. The rest of the driveline is stock, exactly the same parts as in the road car, stock engine and DCT trans, stock cooling system, stock air boxes etc. Expecting some "trick" gear in the race car variant on a part number cross reference, there isn't much other than a few suspension components excluding of course roll cage, race interior, aero and brakes.

Brake fade is the biggest issue with M3/M4 road cars on a racetrack with stock pads.

 

[Forg]

What goes soft?

I should have been more verbose ... I did say "rumour & innuendo" though, underlining my lack of actual knowledge.

In terms of what goes soft, the claim was "the M-Division overall" and what they make, not something in a specific car ... as in, I had been given the impression that they weren't as long-lasting as they once were, especially if driven the way they're advertised as being intended to be driven. The claim (again I'm not saying I actually know anything) is that most people don't ever notice because most buyers only buy them 'cos they're the highest-spec cars in each size-range that BMW makes.

 

[Skylarking]

In terms of what goes soft, the claim was "the M-Division overall"

Yes.

In the old days, M cars were real M cars. They had the lot; driveline, suspension, brake and body were upgraded over their lowly BMW brethren. Now you can get M package upgrades that simply comprise aesthetics; badging and interior styling and maybe wheels and not much else.

Sadly, M division have moved to mass marketing style while still making real M cars with the lot. In that context they definitely have gone soft.

Hyundai have done the same from the get go; N (real performance) & N-line (aesthetic only).

Never thought I’d mention BMW & Hyundai together

 

[Forg]

^ Nah that's not really what I was talking about ... that's a name applied to a line of options or a spec-level by the coke-snorters of the Marketing Department. That's nothing new ... I was talking about a claimed inability to smash an M4 around a race-track without it breaking, something which the person with the actual first-hand knowledge (@RevNev) says isn't a thing.

What you're talking about is like how Ferrari makes more money off socks & jocks than cars.

Well actually, that's how the music business works these days I believe, too ...

 

[Skylarking]

^ Nah that's not really what I was talking about ... that's a name applied to a line of options or a spec-level by the coke-snorters of the Marketing Department. That's nothing new ... I was talking about a claimed inability to smash an M4 around a race-track without it breaking, something which the person with the actual first-hand knowledge (@RevNev) says isn't a thing.

What you're talking about is like how Ferrari makes more money off socks & jocks than cars.

Well actually, that's how the music business works these days I believe, too ...

It is related because in the eyes of many socks and jocks buying public since a BMW with M badges is a M car in their eyes. But such can't smash its way around a race track without getting, well, smashed

So in that context the M division has gone soft by allowing dilution of it's reputation amoung the masses, all for some cash

 

[Forg]

So in that context the M division has gone soft by allowing dilution of it's reputation amoung the masses, all for some cash

… and every so-called “luxury” or “sports car” manufacturer that has made an SUV.

Which is basically every single one that’s not run out of a shed in Coventry or County Skoogle-on-Rye …

 

[RevNev]

In terms of what goes soft, the claim was "the M-Division overall" and what they make, not something in a specific car ... as in, I had been given the impression that they weren't as long-lasting as they once were

Yes that's true in fact as the models progressed beyond the 2018 F80/82 M3/M4's. 2019 they lost the carbon fibre tail shaft to make room for particulate filters in the exhaust and dropped the "CS" variant (track version Clubsport). The current MY2021 G series lost the dual clutch transmission and mechanical hand brake (for doing hand brake turns) and among the die hard BMW enthusiasts, the G series aren't considered a "proper" M3/M4. Although the F Series were faster than the E Series, dropping the E series naturally aspirated V8 for the F Series twin turbo 6 disappointed many. Where the older M3's were a unique performance car, they began to add "M Performance" enhanced variants like the G series M340i is a 4 wheel drive turbo 6 not a whole slower than the M3. From a car uniquely radical from the base model road car, the M3 difference is more like the SSV Redline to the HSV Clubsport more cosmetic than mechanical.

AMG C63 Mercedes weren't much chop as a production race car compared with the BMW M3/M4 and considered more a sports luxury car than a race car with rego plates but as time evolves particularly in the present G Series M cars, it's believed they're becoming more Mercedes like.

The Walkinshaw and VN Group A were pretty radical and by VR GTS, we got a stroker crank, better seats and a body kit. No roller rockers, no manifold, no Bilstein shocks, all the mechanical trickery from HDT was slowly evaporating in HSV's supposed "performance car" variants.

 

[Commo64]

A bit of a thread dig but @Reacher seems to be the forum's first and best armchair engineer... Where tf is this engineering report made by Holden on weak areas of the chassis? Sounds like total bullsh*t to me!

 

[Skylarking]

A bit of a thread dig but @Reacher seems to be the forum's first and best armchair engineer... Where tf is this engineering report made by Holden on weak areas of the chassis? Sounds like total bullsh*t to me!

Reacher​

Member · 31 · From LAS VEGAS
Joined Sep 5, 2022
Last seen Sep 6, 2022