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Nitro_X

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Personally, I remain unconvinced about Hydrogen as a future fuel, because of the manufacturing, storage and distribution network costs. Electric power is much easier to "feed out" to recharge stations and the power generation infrastructure basically already exists. How much would it cost to provide recharging facilities at existing petrol stations, rather than creating new outlets? Initially, they would only have to be located well away from existing petrol pumps but as the market grew, additional recharge points could be installed. Think twenty years or so ahead, and petrol stations could see fossil fuels phased out and recharge point take the place of fuel pumps. (The only major cost here would be either removing or nullifying the empty fuel tanks.)

I've never liked the idea of hydrogen fuel cells for vehicles.
And I think we should keep the big oil companies out of the picture by NOT incorporating the recharge stations at existing petrol servos.
While it may be convenient to utilise the land/facilities associated with the current petrol service stations, BIG oil have had their day, along with all the war/fighting/human deaths/corruption associated with BIG oil.

The biggest challenge for commercial mainstream acceptance of EV's is charge time and range, once we get that sorted, EV's will take off - pun intended :)


Regarding charge stations:

Tesla Store

Superchargers

Electric vehicle charging network by ChargePoint
 

Calaber

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My reason for suggesting existing petrol stations as outlets was to enable rapid expansion of the network across a very large area. The existing petrol outlets in Australia cover the bulk of the populated areas pretty comprehensively and are already connected to the power grid. They would also have some heavy duty power supply connected due to the need for multiple fuel pumps, compressors and lighting.

Leaving the big oil companies out of it could be possible by a tenancy agreement between recharger and oil company. My suggestion is based on the presumption that demand for EV's will grow as demand for petrol diminishes. Don't forget that my suggestion revolves around a truly practical and affordable EV being available that has a decent range. That's some way off yet.

Ultimately the oil companies will be selling a diminishing supply of an expensive commodity that fewer people will buy. They'll be keen to keep their outlets profitable as long as possible so renting out space could be a simple solution for all parties.

Additional comment for members to consider. If an EV with a range of at least 500 kms and a cost of no more than 40k became available and was the size you need, would you buy one, buy another petrol driven vehicle or keep your existing car?
 
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Nitro_X

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Additional comment for members to consider. If an EV with a range of at least 500 kms and a cost of no more than 40k became available and was the size you need, would you buy one, buy another petrol driven vehicle or keep your existing car?

Yes, but only if I was already in the market for a vehicle in this price range.
(I've never purchased a vehicle over $25k)
 

Darren_L

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Additional comment for members to consider. If an EV with a range of at least 500 kms and a cost of no more than 40k became available and was the size you need, would you buy one, buy another petrol driven vehicle or keep your existing car?

I'm not willing to spend $40K on any car
but if I was in the market for a new car and could justify spending money on a new car, I'd happily buy an EV as a daily driver.
however no way in the world I'd be giving up the VH. It stays :)
 

Drawnnite

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as long as the EV can be plugged in and that 500km amount is easily recharged daily.
or if they maybe built in the idea of solar charging so that it can charge (even if not the full amount) the batteries while its either parked or driving.

500kms is pretty decent though.
what would most people honestly drive daily for work or even on the weekends.
used to travel a bucket load for work and be hitting the 200km mark every day. so 500kms would be plenty.
 

Nitro_X

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as long as the EV can be plugged in and that 500km amount is easily recharged daily.
or if they maybe built in the idea of solar charging so that it can charge (even if not the full amount) the batteries while its either parked or driving.

Solar cell technology is advancing also, with improved efficiency for solar energy conversion and flexible cells as part of the external panelling or even embedded into the paint using nano technology this could also help supply charge during daylight hours, while the vehicle is moving or stationary, also regenerative braking can return energy to the power cells.

I've also had this kooky idea for strategically placed micro wind turbines within the vehicle body that can generate electricity to assist with power cell recharge, as the vehicle moves through the air.
Stealth design, you wouldn't see them but there would be aerodynamic channelling designed into the body to funnel high velocity air to spin the turbines.
 

Skydrol

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And spinning the turbines create drag. Might as well build a perpetual motion engine. The Universe does not give free lunches, let alone beer. If that works, let us use it on a sail boat. Put a scoop to collect the wind and route it to the sails.

Range is debatable, the conditions has to allow the vehicle to use every bit of the energy wisely and efficient. What about, stopping in traffic? To accelerate takes huge amounts of energy, but you can recover a mere fraction with regeneration. Would you be willing to stand still in traffic in the middle of the summer, or winter or down pour with no AC (60s and 70s flashbacks)? To make it aerodynamic, the windows are pretty much worthless when moving. You get this loud slapping noise from turbulence. What about night time, lights to see, vehicle position lights.

Factor all that on top of what we have now and you see is not easy.

My son's BMW 335i has the Start / Stop feature. Weird at first when you drive. That feature really works. A 6 cly with Twin Power Turbo can get 31 MPG (7.56 L/100K) with about 350 HP, very impressive. However, only works when cabin temps are at the preset level. If is too cold or hot inside, the engine continues to run.

On Solar Cells...
The current technology still too crude to even be useful. They start to degrade as soon they are exposed to the sun; UV rays are brutal. The most decent panels to make it close to cost effective are probably around 20% efficient, not good enough, the best ones, at about 30ish% and cost prohibited. Another consideration, shape. Try to design body panels with the right contour with solar panels and be exposed to the sun with the maximum amount of area. Installing flat panels, is not only ugly as heck, is bad for aerodynamics, adds weight; drag cost money and power. On top of that is maintenance, dirt accumulates on the panel; you get the point.

Calaber is right, using the existent Fuel Station infrastructure is a sound idea. However, for how long you are willing to wait for a recharge? Hydrogen is some that is difficult to handle and contain. We know the dangers of LPG, apply that to Hydrogen in cryogenic state. Beside, Hydrogen main source is Natural Gas and many other products. Extracting Hydrogen from air is cost prohibited (air is roughly 75% Nitrogen, 20% Oxygen). Extracting from water, too many impurities to weed out before extracting it and in large quantities to keep up with demand. The energy used to extract is much higher; not even break even.

I think fuel cell is the way to go. It has all the conveniences of gasoline handling that we all know and fast turn around. The fuel cell needs to work with some form of liquid. I am suggesting a non-pollutant liquid, some sort of carrier, some that transport the fuel. Then, the cell, separates the part that will be used for electricity, the rest drained. One advantage of combustion engine is, a full tank or a cup of fuel has the same amount of kick. Not only that, weight is lost due to fuel depletion. A battery weights practically the same, fully charged or not. Also behave like tank of compressed air (if you want to visualize it), crack the valve open for a bit, the pressure left is not the same as before. On petrol, the engine has the same power regardless of how much fuel is left in the tank; electric motors fizzle out when the battery is depleting. That comes another problem, extract more EMF out of the battery it will overheat it due to internal resistance. I bet you do not want to ride on a car, with a battery set that can go Supernova one of these days, do you?
 

Skydrol

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doesn't really matter now if Tesla is going bust.

Even if they shut their doors tomorrow, their achievements alone will ensure the future of electric powered cars.
Most people didn't take EV's seriously until the Tesla, they were a bit of a joke. Hybrids have been somewhat adopted, but nothing ground breaking since some of the diesels now can achieve similar. There were some other electric powered cars, but they were awkward looking things that only a nerd would drive, gutless, very limited economy if not better. But Tesla has brought out electric vehicles that look like a half decent car, big luxury 4 door sedan comparable in size to a Commodore/Falcon, have a range of around 500kms, and are taking on some of the worlds fastest supercars in performance.

So whether Tesla is still around in a years time doesn't really matter. The technology is now there, proven and only going to get cheaper. People's attitude towards EV's have largely changed. Tesla's achievements have forced other manufacturers to step up their game and adopt similar technology in their own cars. Porsche, Maserati are just a couple of names who are now looking at electric power and that same technology is eventually going to filter down to more entry level cars.

Tesla achievement is a scam. One of their money making racket they are running has to do with Cap and Trade. Because the car is "non pollutant, 0 Carbon Emission" (call it bullshit, manufacturing carbon footprint is much higher to build the batteries) they sell their carbon tax credits to other manufacturers. Also, the mandates for 0 emissions is pushing manufacturers to create their own EV, call it In "House Carbon Credits". If the Govs want to really stop the "Carbon Madness", just Cap and forbid the trade.

That is one of the ways, they can come out with that car and still at a loss. If the car is sold, in a fair and squared business practice, will cost more than $150,000 USD. Nobody will buy it for that much coin. Is proven that Driving the Model S like any other car it has a lower range at about 190 Miles. GM EV1 15 years ago had 160 Miles, so no much of a change.

The Solar City that is supposedly been built, is proven that Solar Panels alone does not have the power output to meet demand; another White Elephant.

Fisker ( Fisker Karma) had the same deal, their problem was, it was build in Scandinavia. People in the US bitched about why giving money to them; so they went bust.

Elon Musk is a buffoon, a snake oil salesman, regurgitating old, impractical ideas (search about Hyperloop), makes them its very own. Will love to see the end of the current administration to shut off the money spigot.

Anybody can take any car (new and/or old) and jam pack it with batteries, install a couple of electric motors; just like the Tesla Roadsdter (electrified Lotus Elise) and see if you can sustain the business without any handouts. Just try it, at least on paper, research the technology.
 

Nitro_X

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Skydrol, I don't think you fully understood my previous post, so I'll elaborate....
I have a working knowledge of physics, thermodynamics an solar energy, my comments were not about 100% efficiencies because it is well known there are always losses in any energy system.

1. Turbines (as a unit) don't create drag but turbine blades create some resistance, however, right from the start an EV can be designed to be more aerodynamically efficient than the current fossil fuel burners, specifically the front of the vehicle which does not require air-dams and grills to funnel air to restrictive and large flat surface areas such as radiators for engine and fluid cooling.

2. The "micro" turbines I mentioned are simply an idea in my brain, a "concept", as far as I'm aware no-one has done research or experimentation on this. Plus, I would design aerodynamic channels to incorporate these micro turbines which may even reduce overall vehicle drag.
Inventions & ideas start in the human brain before they move to research, development and commercial application.
Open your mine, brother!

3. Building architects have already utilised large scale wind turbines in the construction of city skyscrapers.

While these are for fix structures and not moving vehicles, it will give you an idea of the R&D and innovative technologies occurring today and into the future:

Pearl River Tower - The Skyscraper Center

Ten of the Greenest Skyscrapers in the World

Dubai’s Wind Powered Rotating Skyscraper is Building in Motion | Green Prophet

4. Solar energy can be harnessed in many ways, advances in technology and manufacturing processes are amazing, flexible thin film solar cells which can be contoured & shaped, nano technology, carbon nano tubes, etc. which could be incorporated and manufactured into the base materials themselves.
The Sun's solar energy is made up of many energy wavelengths, thin film solar cells could be incorporated into glass which allow the passing of visible light and transparency, while using other energetic wavelengths to convert to electricity.

5. We already have flexible film solar cell commercially available:

powerfilm-flexible-solar-panels-2.jpg


a3173a31.jpg


09-07-13+Ericsson+V3.JPG


Solar powered vehicles (not yet using the cells as the main power source for family cars but used to top up batteries and extend range, the ideas and technologies are many and varied:

Hexa-solar-powered-concept-electric-car_6.jpg
 

Nitro_X

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Tesla achievement is a scam. One of their money making racket they are running has to do with Cap and Trade. Because the car is "non pollutant, 0 Carbon Emission" (call it bullshit, manufacturing carbon footprint is much higher to build the batteries) they sell their carbon tax credits to other manufacturers. Also, the mandates for 0 emissions is pushing manufacturers to create their own EV, call it In "House Carbon Credits". If the Govs want to really stop the "Carbon Madness", just Cap and forbid the trade.

That is one of the ways, they can come out with that car and still at a loss. If the car is sold, in a fair and squared business practice, will cost more than $150,000 USD. Nobody will buy it for that much coin. Is proven that Driving the Model S like any other car it has a lower range at about 190 Miles. GM EV1 15 years ago had 160 Miles, so no much of a change.

The Solar City that is supposedly been built, is proven that Solar Panels alone does not have the power output to meet demand; another White Elephant.

Fisker ( Fisker Karma) had the same deal, their problem was, it was build in Scandinavia. People in the US bitched about why giving money to them; so they went bust.

Elon Musk is a buffoon, a snake oil salesman, regurgitating old, impractical ideas (search about Hyperloop), makes them its very own. Will love to see the end of the current administration to shut off the money spigot.

Anybody can take any car (new and/or old) and jam pack it with batteries, install a couple of electric motors; just like the Tesla Roadsdter (electrified Lotus Elise) and see if you can sustain the business without any handouts. Just try it, at least on paper, research the technology.

You have no idea what you're talking about, Tesla EV's have broken new ground, and proven that commercially viable EV's are a reality....NOW
No-one else has achieved what Tesla has done for EV's, the proof is on the road, you can buy one, legally register it and you can sit in the vehicle and drive it.

The Fossil fuel industry and the periphery industries reliant on them have been government subsidised for decades, and lets not mention the destruction, pollution, war, human deaths and corporate/government corruption involved in the oil industry.
Since the GFC, car manufacturers in the US & Australia have been bailed out with billions of dollars of tax payer money, so taking just these realities into consideration renders your argument against Tesla, irrelevant.
 
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