VW Vs EPA drama ?

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

Lol at conned. It's only California that has the strict controls in place. It's only California that requires this particular test. It's only California that has been "conned". I'd recall the cars, give the pruchasers their money back and say #### California. Resell the cars as used cars in other markets and be less in the hole than if they had to fix all the cars and pay the fines.

 

[mpower]

Lol at conned. It's only California that has the strict controls in place. It's only California that requires this particular test. It's only California that has been "conned". I'd recall the cars, give the pruchasers their money back and say #### California. Resell the cars as used cars in other markets and be less in the hole than if they had to fix all the cars and pay the fines.

The problem is that the US has outlawed defeat devices, so the emissions could be anything and they'd still cop it.

 

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

I'd still argue against it being a "defeat device". It's not really defeating emission controls, it's enhancing them if anything.

 

[mpower]

I'd still argue against it being a "defeat device". It's not really defeating emission controls, it's enhancing them if anything.

The emissions controls are reduced - on the highway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_device

A defeat device, as defined by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), is any apparatus that unduly reduces the effectiveness of emissions control systems under conditions a vehicle may reasonably be expected to experience.[1][2]

The term originates from the US Clean Air Act,[3] and refers to anything that prevents an emissions control system from working.[4] The EPA has taken numerous enforcement actions against companies that have deliberately, or through error or negligence, allowed defeat devices to interfere with pollution controls at power plants, in motor vehicles, and elsewhere. Aftermarket car parts and accessories, such as exhaust or fuel system modification components, which affect emissions, are considered defeat devices.

Also in 1996, Ford reached a consent decree to spend $7.9 million to address a defeat device on 60,000 1997 model year Econoline vans which used a "sophisticated electronic control strategy designed to enhance fuel economy", disabling NOx emissions controls while the vans were driven at highway speeds, a circumstance not occurring during lab testing to verify emissions control compliance.[9]

In 1998, the EPA announced fines totaling $83.4 million against seven heavy truck manufacturers, the largest fine to date, which evaded testing by shutting down emissions controls during highway driving while appearing to be in compliance during lab testing.[10] The seven, Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Mack Trucks, Navistar International, Renault Trucks, and Volvo Trucks, also agreed to spend more than $1 billion to correct the problem.[11] The trucks used engine ECU software to engage pollution controls during the 20-minute lab tests to verify compliance with the Clean Air Act, but then disable the emissions controls during normal highway cruising, emitting up to three times the maximum allowed NOx pollution.[

 

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

But technically the device doesn't disable emission controls at all, on the highway the engine is running normally, the device only activates during test conditions, so really, it isn't "defeating" anything in real world driving.

A defeat device, as defined by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), is any apparatus that unduly reduces the effectiveness of emissions control systems under conditions a vehicle may reasonably be expected to experience.[1][2]

A test environment isn't a condition a vehicle may reasonably expect to experience. While these vehicles are being driven around, the "defeat device" isn't actually operating.

 

[Reaper]

But technically the device doesn't disable emission controls at all, on the highway the engine is running normally, the device only activates during test conditions, so really, it isn't "defeating" anything in real world driving.

A defeat device, as defined by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), is any apparatus that unduly reduces the effectiveness of emissions control systems under conditions a vehicle may reasonably be expected to experience.[1][2]

A test environment isn't a condition a vehicle may reasonably expect to experience. While these vehicles are being driven around, the "defeat device" isn't actually operating.

Yes, this piece of software unduly reduces the effectiveness of emissions control systems under *all* conditions that the vehicle will face in normal operation. How the car is tuned during the testing process is deemed to be the same tune etc it will use in normal operation. This 'device' clearly reduces the effectiveness of the emissions control systems in normal operation.

 

[Immortality]

But technically the device doesn't disable emission controls at all, on the highway the engine is running normally, the device only activates during test conditions, so really, it isn't "defeating" anything in real world driving.

A defeat device, as defined by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), is any apparatus that unduly reduces the effectiveness of emissions control systems under conditions a vehicle may reasonably be expected to experience.[1][2]

A test environment isn't a condition a vehicle may reasonably expect to experience. While these vehicles are being driven around, the "defeat device" isn't actually operating.

Yes, this piece of software unduly reduces the effectiveness of emissions control systems under *all* conditions that the vehicle will face in normal operation. How the car is tuned during the testing process is deemed to be the same tune etc it will use in normal operation. This 'device' clearly reduces the effectiveness of the emissions control systems in normal operation.

You would both be right (given that) I think the biggest issue is the test doesn't really reflect real world driving conditions that car's spend most of their time in.

We really need someone from California to explain what their smog test involves.

 

[Skydrol]

According to mpower post Ford did such thing along other manufacturers. Have any of you heard of any of it in the past? What gets me is, happen before and is a huge stink now with VW. In my opinion, they just did what others did. So why is it with all the noise towards this manufacturer?

Another thing comes to mind... roughly 20 years ago was proven the test is flawed and does not produce the intended result (just give a controlled lab result, not real/actual results). To prevent this from occurring again, why the test was not changed and/or revised?

According to California Smog Check

Smog Information

Currently, smog inspections are required for all vehicles#exceptdiesel powered vehicles 1997 year model and older or with a Gross Vehicle Weight (GVWR) of more than 14,000 lbs, electric, natural gas powered vehicles over 14,000 lbs, motorcycles, trailers, or gasoline powered vehicles 1975 and older.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/vr/smog

Apparently, the test was changed in 2013. My understanding is the old test was better but cost more. So they changed it for an ODBII data test as a cost measure.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Smog_Check_Program

The bill, which passed and will take effect in 2013, will allow for a major upgrade in technologies used to test vehicle emissions. According to ARB Chairman, Mary D. Nichols, “[t]his new and improved program will have the same result as taking 800,000 vehicles away from California residents, also resulting in a more cost effective program for California motorists”.[19]#One way the program would reduce costs is by taking advantage of#on-board diagnostic#(OBDII) technology that has been installed on new vehicles since 1996. The program will eliminate tailpipe testing of post-1999 vehicles and instead use the vehicle’s own emissions monitoring systems. This system has saved consumers in 22 states time and money.[19]#Vehicles manufactured in the model years between 1976 and 1999 are now required to pass a more stringent dynamometer-based tail-pipe test than was previously required.[20][21]#A high number of vehicles in this range have begun to fail the emissions test with the arrival of their first test-year under the new rule; some question the influence of the automotive industry on the new rule and the inherent push and perceived unfair requirement to purchase a new or near-new vehicle to replace an otherwise functional and OBDII compliant vehicle.

 

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

So under the new test procedure, you can tune your car to pass the test, then retune it for fun. How is that a real world test? I guess car sales have gone up in California since 2013.

 

[mpower]

Regardless of the defense of VW here they are in the proverbial up to their eyeballs

Texas sues Volkswagen, Audi over diesel emissions cheating

Volkswagen: German prosecutors raid VW headquarters over emissions cheating scandal - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Volkswagen calls off some 2016 U.S. diesel models for now