LS3 Lifter noise or Piston Slap?

[Martbar]

Like Kakodaemon said, i bought this car when i heard Holden was going under as an investment. Ive made a pretty penny out of it thats for sure, but i cant even sell it making this noise. So now im up for probably $10k to rebuild it just to shut it up. I know slap doesnt hurt, but tell that to a potential buyer looking to spend $90k while its knocking its brain out. ridiculous. 65,000 kms and its rooted. Wish i had have just bought a damn AMG like i wanted​

Mate some of the AMG stuff was a bit flaky as well. Head bolts rusting out and letting go, with the resulting engine damage. Can't remember what some of the others were.

 

[Kakodaemon]

Sad but that was to be expected.

At least the dealer sort of covered themselves (and you) by referencing “according to Holden this not a durability concern”.

So I gnoring the noise for the moment, the question then becomes what is the expected durability of an LS1 (in kms) given recommended servicing? When would an engine rebuild be expected; at 100,000kms, 1/4 million kms or 1/2 million kms or more… how durable is this lump of an engine? And what is Holden’s definition of durable… bet it not the same as what we “normals“ would consider it to mean…

It will be very interesting to see a final outcome from @VCoz effort and court process… You can read about his sage (which is hopefully coming to an end soon) at the below link

http://[URL][URL]https://forums.jus...under-acl-warranty-now-holden-is-gone.288383/

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PS: and if you did the last service at a 3rd party mechanic and showed them proof, I’d want that stupid “105k Service not claimed - expired FEB“ statement removed from the service receipt as it is simply misleading… If you serviced it at a 3rd party mechanic, the relevance of claiming CPS or not isn’t… we’ll relevant at all.

I'm definitely interested with the outcome from @VCoz court case, it will certainly influence which, if any, steps I take next.
I think the 105 service is part of the capped price servicing I have been getting from them. I think the previous owner serviced the car more than needed and used up a lot of the capped price servicing intervals. I believe they are just trying to say that I got what they call the 105k service done elsewhere, so I can't claim it at the next capped price service, IF I choose to get it done at Holden. You correct though, it is misleading.

 

[Kakodaemon]

Like Kakodaemon said, i bought this car when i heard Holden was going under as an investment. Ive made a pretty penny out of it thats for sure, but i cant even sell it making this noise. So now im up for probably $10k to rebuild it just to shut it up. I know slap doesnt hurt, but tell that to a potential buyer looking to spend $90k while its knocking its brain out. ridiculous. 65,000 kms and its rooted. Wish i had have just bought a damn AMG like i wanted​

This is exactly the problem. No one in their right mind will want to buy a car that makes the noises our cars make, even if I show them a note from Holden claiming there is no issue. At the very best a smart person would try and bend you over on the price, so the car has been seriously devalued by "piston slap." No one has ever advertised a VFLS3 as being in great condition with piston slap.

 

[Kakodaemon]

So apparently it is normal for some LS3's to do this 'normal' noisy characteristic and that others don't? You wrote 'GM regarding piston slap, but said i couldn't take it with me.' (The likely standard document was DL 65/16 (attached as posted by another member) - GM Australia have made the claim/and not denied that DL 64/16 exists? - I have seen no evidence to believe it does!)
So who decided that 'It said piston slap was normal and in bold lettering said "Do not replace engine." - first question here is was an engine replacement under Good Will made to GM Australia/asking for the engine to be replaced? 'It was only half a page and looked like the bottom half had been covered over when photocopied' - what needed to be hidden from the owner of the vehicle? (Note the $Billions compensation that Toyota is currently facing within Australia re Diesel Filters on 3 of its post 2015> diesel vehicles.)
Re GM Australia's LS3 cold start engine noise claims and diagnostic approach - I hope to have a lot more to share after my Australian Consumer Law (ACL) legal process ends - both in evidence obtained and ultimately what Consumer Guarantee under ACL means for Holden LS3 owners in practice.
To my understanding - key statements you were given 'assumed written by the dealer' in your post (or influenced) include - 'ACCORDING TO GM/HOLDEN THIS IS NOT A DURIBILITY CONCERN.' So if GM/HOLDEN 'categorise' this cold start engine noise as a normal characteristic? then how many others have the same level and type of cold start engine noise? and then how many abnormal engines don't make that noise (never or until Xkms)? Yes, so then what does durability mean for YOUR engine and KM driven (and for those without that experience what IS being claimed to be 'normal' noise)? So how was this noise limited to 'piston slap' and not include other manufacturing faults. Quality control appears more relevant to current LS3 owners than past durability (or is it continued running) because of the simple design of an LS3 engine. As stated if the consumer would not buy a vehicle, if aware it made a loud cold start racket, then how long it keeps running is not the only issue under ACL (please read your State or Territories legislation re vehicles and why so called 'lemon laws' were created). ACCC is Federal and focuses primarily on Manufacturer and Dealer practices which impact on Consumers.

Question: What does engine internal damage look like to an independent LS3 repairer/engine rebuilder and what heard/visual internal damage would be ignored by an independent engine builder if an LS3 engine was reconditioned to be back within normal specifications (i.e. what would be independently 'categorised' as normal variations from engine specifications/tolerances re YOUR engine if independently disassembled for repair? As stated in an earlier post if you go down the repair path get any out of specification readings and lots of photos - and keep all key parts replaced.

So, now are LS3 owners expected to accepted that GM/HOLDEN (with a $$$ conflict of interest) can without transparency re the diagnostic assessment information, blindly accept claimed Knocking/tapping sound that GOES AWAY AFTER 4-5 MINUTES' under 'some' GM Australia set test circumstances satisfies some hidden GM standard, or is it that at any unspecified noise level is OK today during GM Australia LS3 tests. Where is that GM/Holden claim verified within some alleged or 'proprietary' hidden GM specification? What has been claimed above does not to my understanding fit with GM (US) Technical Bulletins that I have seen re Piston Slap (suggest LS3 owners do their own US searches to form an informed decision rather than just say some engines last hundreds of thousands of Kms (you will find that some don't and some 'normal piston slap' claims are found not to be correct and some after disassembly to be lifters (which cause internal engine damage))).

FACTs I have experienced to date: Manufacturer pre-determined/self review is very different to independent review made prior to GM Australia's influence.
I understand your urgency and position but, 'If I was you" I would register your matter/GM Australia's response with the ACCC as soon as possible and also ask the dealer to put in writing just how that GM Australia's diagnosis was formulated/tests conducted (and did the Dealer agree or just accept GM Australia's opinion as over-riding their factory trained technicians experience/diagnosis).

The document I saw seemed to have almost the exactly same sentences (from the quick look i saw of it) as the one you posted, difference being that the one I saw was set out as bullet points, there were 3 points and one said do not replace engine. It looked like a photocopy from a manual or something with the bottom half either blocked out or was too far away from the scanner, as there were some dark areas that may have been writing but were not legible.
I think what they wrote on my service shows they just followed what GM/Holden say about piston slap.
I was told they could look into it further, but would need my car for a considerable amount of time and would obviously come at a cost.
The place that originally did the service and diagnosis never got back to me with price/timeline to "repair" the noise. With Holden stating in writing that my car is completely fine, and me starting a new job on Monday, I won't be looking into getting it repaired any time soon, if a piston happens to smash its way out of the block in the meantime, then Holden will just have to fix it.

 

[Skylarking]

Durability: the ability to withstand wear, pressure, or damage.

That's literally the LS to a tee. Refer to the pictures I posted, Google and YouTube

Whether it bothers an owner, affects saleability or whether Holden should wear it was not topic of my comment

The invoice @Kakodaemon posted mentioned Holden’s view of durability with no thought towards customer concerns around potential problems going forward (regardless of the fact such noises are a concern in and of itself).

My point is that Holden is saying such noises are normal (they are not as not all motors clatter in that way). Holden are also saying motors suffering such noises are durable (yet refuses to define what that means and whether they will stand by any failures that occur by providing an extended warranty to ease customer concerns).

The fact durability can be considered over million of units isn’t really relevant to those people who’s products have failed. And failed they have when quiet motors become noisy. In that context what these customers bought simply isn’t durable… which you fail to grasp.

Durability is also related to how a manufacturer stands by their product which is on topic and directly related to my statements. As of late, Holden doesn’t stand behind much at all, they are full of excuses, denials and claim proprietary information whenever questioned about their statements. It’s all bullshit. In that context, about the only thing that’s durable is Holdens warranty denials.…

As you yourself have stated, you can’t tell if there is damage unless the motor is stripped down for inspection. Such is an expensive exercise and a cost barrier for owners. Holden knows all, yet Holden won’t devulge how extensive this noise issue is nor how many replaced motors were stripped down and found to be outside manufacturers tolerances. it’s all an excessive in not standing by the product you make…

As much as your above definition of durability is accurate, it’s also is clear that these failed motors were not durable by the same definition.

As great as the LS3 is, if it was durable by your quoted Oxford definition, Holden wouldn’t hesitate to stand by them, but they don’t. If it was durable, a quiet engine would stay quiet rather than getting noisier and noisier (which has to imply wear has been occurring and will continue to occur… prematurely?)…

Regardless what Holden or you think of the LS3’s durability, for those who now suffer injector failure, piston slap or valve train issues, ask those people if they think the engine is durable. For some it’s a lemon of an engine…

Obviously GM/Holden say piston slap is normal because it supports their bottom line. And for quite a few here, the LS3 simply hasn’t been durable…

Guess we‘ll have to agree to disagree

 

[Immortality]

Piston slap is due to excessive piston to bore clearances. If some cylinders have it and others not it just reinforces the point that there was too greater variation in tolerances between parts, whether that be variation in bore sizes and/or piston diameters. I'd say a combination of both.

This is what slap looked like in a 240k LS1. There were three cylinders like this. Noisy AF cold since the day I got it. Could barely feel it with a nail, I put 14 pounds through it for the next 60k and it's hit 320k in the car it was transplanted to. Not a durable motor at all. Ultimately you'll never know unless you strip it

View attachment 239149

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But the reality is, that block is probably scrap, sure you can re-use it but a engine shop could never pass something like that off as acceptable and sell it to a customer.

Durability: the ability to withstand wear, pressure, or damage.

That's literally the LS to a tee. Refer to the pictures I posted, Google and YouTube

Whether it bothers an owner, affects saleability or whether Holden should wear it was not topic of my comment

Those pictures of yours suggest that there is wear and damage to the bores so that really isn't durability. Sure it will run but is really acceptable? No and especially not on a new car that is still within warranty.

 

[Martbar]

The document I saw seemed to have almost the exactly same sentences (from the quick look i saw of it) as the one you posted, difference being that the one I saw was set out as bullet points, there were 3 points and one said do not replace engine. It looked like a photocopy from a manual or something with the bottom half either blocked out or was too far away from the scanner, as there were some dark areas that may have been writing but were not legible.
I think what they wrote on my service shows they just followed what GM/Holden say about piston slap.
I was told they could look into it further, but would need my car for a considerable amount of time and would obviously come at a cost.
The place that originally did the service and diagnosis never got back to me with price/timeline to "repair" the noise. With Holden stating in writing that my car is completely fine, and me starting a new job on Monday, I won't be looking into getting it repaired any time soon, if a piston happens to smash its way out of the block in the meantime, then Holden will just have to fix it.

Mate l'm in the same boat, the dealer gave me an updated free warranty for 2years or 200,000ks whichever happens first. This xmas the 2 years are up. It's an AFM motor and the slap cylinders are the ones that are deactivated during the AFM cycle. That's why I wondered if it had anything to do with insufficient lubrication, and even if it did it still wouldn't account for the slap in the non AFM motors.

 

[dassaur]

I think I'm glad I have an L77 reading this thread

 

[Pollushon]

Mate ours is the same, one slapping on the right bank and two on the left. I could understand it a little better if they were all slapping. Have these problem cylinders not had enough lubrication, or are there differences in bore and piston sizes?

That's why it's called a phenomenon I guess. I mean size and geometry is an obvious influence and we're talking in thousandths, I can't see that lubrication would have any influence. The piston rocks and the skirt bumps the bore. Once expansion occurs tolerances are spot on and it stops. When you compare my stroker to a stock piston it's very obvious why they slap

I personally think all LS slap, it's more a question of if it's audible. I've seen oodles of LS blocks and the majority of bores had the right marks in the right places

 

[Pollushon]

Piston slap is due to excessive piston to bore clearances. If some cylinders have it and others not it just reinforces the point that there was too greater variation in tolerances between parts, whether that be variation in bore sizes and/or piston diameters. I'd say a combination of both.




But the reality is, that block is probably scrap, sure you can re-use it but a engine shop could never pass something like that off as acceptable and sell it to a customer.



Those pictures of yours suggest that there is wear and damage to the bores so that really isn't durability. Sure it will run but is really acceptable? No and especially not on a new car that is still within warranty.

If the tolerances are correct at op temp how is it excessive?

It's literally the definition of durability dude. It's damage that had no bearing on the life of the engine or the extra abuse I gave it with boost and why it still runs like a dream today after nearly 20 years and 320k. Any engine that runs is being 'damaged' with every stroke and every rotation. That's why all things eventually degrade and wear out. It's how that degradation relates to operation that defines durability