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Can the Cam?

Discussion in 'VF Holden Commodore (2013 - 2017)' started by 426Cuda, Dec 31, 2018.

  1. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

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    Ok, so I'm off to Gentech in Canberra with my (auto) Motorsport shortly. I've put it off as long as I could! I've researched a bit re cam/no cam, cam choice, over time, but remain undecided.
    Now I want the car to have PERFECT manners in traffic e.g. no surge whatsoever! I don't want to effect the amazing balance, poise and symmetry of the various mechanical and computerised systems, that make this car such a joy to drive, to be negatively effected. Just f 98 r a lopey idle and peak power. I also want at least the same, but ideally more bottom to mid range torque and throttle response.
    Am I expecting too much re the above after a cam install? Of course the tune is critical, but less so than can choice IMO.
    I'll discuss this in detail with the blokes at GT. But, I'm interested in what others have done.
    Combo will be either (Roto-Fab CAI and 2.5 inch cat back already fitted):
    Headers
    Hi flow cats
    2.5" Exhaust
    Tune
    Or;
    Above plus say a 216/228 duration (112-114) LSA ~580-600 lift cam. Something like say a VCM232 or 685.
    So, yourcomments please blokes? Remembering this car is a keeper for me. Do I cam it or not? If I do, how will it behave with ~ the above cam specs and a good tune?
    Cheers!
     
  2. PeteSS

    PeteSS Active Member

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    If you want PERFECT manners in traffic, don't cam. Though it's personal choice. Some people get a hard on with all that comes with a cam (rough idle, fumes, bad manners, etc).

    The tune will be more critical than you think . Things like the 'blip' on downchanges, and traction control can be affected (or disappear altogether) by a bad tune. My tuner finally sorted most of the issues out with mine, and its like it has a different cam. Much better manners
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
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  3. blackve76

    blackve76 Well-Known Member

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    Small cam like that it's a waste to me. It it's a keeper maybe a basic low boost supercharger and you can always remove later.

    Or a lower diff ratio
     
  4. panhead

    panhead Well-Known Member

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    I’d say yes to the cam but something just a little bigger than the 216/228 you’ve quoted.

    As you know the tune with just the CAI and exhaust mods without the cam is going to make a big improvement to the bottom end but the right cam will also add to that bottom end improvement.

    Even a mid size to big cam will usually improve low down performance over stock but they also start to bring other factors into play.

    As you’ve already indicated you’ll be seeking advice from Gentech, I’d accept what they say about the right cam to suit your road manners requirements and make sure you let us know the cam specs if you go down that road.




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    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
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  5. monty_vfssv

    monty_vfssv Active Member

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    I'd go with a smaller split something like 222/228-112 under .600 lift
     
  6. Smashfist

    Smashfist Active Member

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    Swapping in such a small cam is a huge waste of money and effort for the very little you'll achieve back out of it.

    Second charging it later if you 100% want no change in manners.
     
  7. EYY

    EYY Well-Known Member

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    If you want perfect manners and a performance gain that's worth the cash, you'll need to go cam, histall and tune to match. You won't notice a 3000rpm histall on the street in terms of driveablity - all it'll do is stop it surging at the lights and give you much better acceleration when you plant your foot.
     
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  8. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

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    Thanks for the responses gents.
    I'm only looking for say 300/320 rwkw. Of course bigger specs will give me more top end. But, there are compromises of you go too big. I'll see what the Gentech boys recommend (excl Walkinshaw kits).
     
  9. EternityDre

    EternityDre Well-Known Member

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    If you only want this kind of power and want road manners, sounds like a cam is redundant! Surely something like my 385kw pack would suit and be more economical? I'm making around 305rwkw. It's true most power is at the top end but is another ~$4000 worth it for a touch more that will be barely noticable?
     
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  10. Happydaze

    Happydaze Happydaze

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    I got a 224 230 114 in my LS2 auto. Factory stall, great manners, no surging. Nice lump & good power gain. Also boost friendly.
     
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  11. Banjo79

    Banjo79 Active Member

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    I think you'll be talked out of a 685 before long, regardless, VCM once recommended the 15 over the 685 to me. With 4 degress less exhaust duration, they said it would be more appropriate for NA applications. I have neither so can't comment on characteristics.
     
  12. 07GTS

    07GTS Well-Known Member

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    i can not stress the fact the tuner plays in any cam, ive seen logs for a US tuner with a cam in the 240-250 idling like a baby and the customer wanted more chop, there are far more tables then most tuners here use or even know actually help with cams they just dont have the extra few hours of testing to find them out, idle and the 1st gear slow speed transitions back and forth are prob the hardest to get right because of the tables they are shifting in and out of must all work with each other, an average tuner will get a small cam working well but a advanced tuner will get a larger cam working just as good but with the benefits of more power/torque
     
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  13. blackve76

    blackve76 Well-Known Member

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    You could shave the heads a bit and port manifold a bit and end up with a good drivable car.
     
  14. Banjo79

    Banjo79 Active Member

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    If camshaft max power increases in a linear fashion, relative to a numerical inrease in duration and possible changes to lsa and lift to keep it apples and apples, I've always considered a jump from roughly 200/208 stock L77 to 216/224, half way there to I what would think would be considered by most, a fairly large camshaft eg. 232/248, which would surely come with challenges, regardless of what the tuner can do for you. So could anyone confirm if a numerical increase, especially duration, would predictabily and in a linear fashion, increase the pro's and con's of any given bump stick? Maybe "baby" aftermarket camshafts aren't all that baby after all.
     
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  15. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

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    "Maybe "baby" aftermarket camshafts aren't all that baby after all"
    My thoughts Ed Zachary.
     
  16. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

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    So taking an extreme view. Are you saying a good tune can tune such good manners into say a 240/250 can, that it will behave well in an auto combination, even without a stally? Yes, there are many incremental changes that can be factored into a tune in these things. But, at the end of the day, it's just various combos of air, fuel and (ignition) timing. Am I correct in saying that?
     
  17. Smashfist

    Smashfist Active Member

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    So many variables go into cam manners - there's a few things that can affect it apart from the obvious valve duration. Even with a wider lobe separation I wouldn't put my 232/234 into an auto without a stall - at a 114 LSA it's got a much more sedate idle than the same grind at a 110 lobe sep, but I still wouldn't risk it depending on driving conditions. I would be toast trying to drive mine to work in gridlock, mine's manual and I swear I'd go through a clutch a month. If 100% unchanged street manners is a mandatory requirement then an aftermarket camshaft isn't really a good option.
     
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  18. monty_vfssv

    monty_vfssv Active Member

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    I disagree.. sounds like you went too big. You can pick up say ~20kw and have near stock manners with improved power/torque everywhere. Once you start pushing for say +40kw you will start to sacrifice manners. LS3 responds very well to small/med cams.
     
  19. 07GTS

    07GTS Well-Known Member

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    there is always a limit to torque with big cams u can get them to behave but it dosnt mean u will have good torque down low and still a higher stall would improve it keeping in its torque band, for low speed drivability a cam dosnt buck because it's a cam it bucks because the ecu isn't set up for the poor low speed airflow corrections and by that i mean more then just the adaptive idle tables, with my cam i had in manual vcm6 233 233 i could release clutch at 1000rpm and sit there and use throttle 1000-1500rpm range no worries even cruising 80kph 6th 1300rpm was fine could even lean into boost without issue and that cam isn't ment to work well till 2700rpm
     
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  20. panhead

    panhead Well-Known Member

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    I can’t see a 240/250 cam in an auto without a stall having stock manners regardless of the tuner, unless you want to be the Guinea Pig and pay a tuner to have your car for a year while they work with it and wear the cost if they fail.

    I have a custom grind 230 with a 112 LSA and ported heads in my manual E Series Clubsport and it gets through traffic without any problems but the tune took some time to get right.

    You can definitely tell the car is cammed and I couldn’t see it working in an auto without a stall.

    The work was done by Sam’s Performance in Sydney.

    In your case I'd want a cam around 224/232 LSA 113/114 if it was my car as it tried and tested and you may not need a stall.





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