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Ceramic paint protection

Chefie

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Just purchased Gyeon MOHS from car care products to apply to a new motorsport, ill update when done i used Nanolex on a merc and was happy but it fell away after 18 months, my cars are outside and dailys, unfortunately no garages or car covers yet
 

Voodoo_SV6

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^^^ That's what I was going to buy, but the guy at CCP told me it wouldn't give me any noticeable difference to the paint hardness, which was my main reason for wanting to try it. I'll just stick with my current "once every three months" coat of sealant.
 

duaned

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I use Gyeon Can Coat. It has a life of aprox. 12 months but the water just sheets off the stuff. believe you can apply a wax over it as well.
 

Chefie

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CCP brisbane, asked about wax over ceramic and he said not needed and the 2 dont bond that well, example was opposing magnets,

the Gyeon MOHS was an easy application with 2 of us 1 applying at the other removing within 15 seconds

2 coats and ill update after 2 weeks and wash
the car
 

White Swan

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CCP brisbane, asked about wax over ceramic and he said not needed and the 2 dont bond that well, example was opposing magnets,

the Gyeon MOHS was an easy application with 2 of us 1 applying at the other removing within 15 seconds

2 coats and ill update after 2 weeks and wash
the car


That's strange as CCP in Sydney says different and will sell product to do it.
 

panhead

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Paint protection is often misunderstood and most of it is because of misleading advertising and people not really understanding the products that are available.

Before I get into what is considered to be the pros and cons of ceramic coatings versus carnauba wax and layering of products I will first touch on an area where some people get confused and that is polish.

A polish is not a wax or a ceramic coating it’s an abrasive substance used to shine a surface by removing swirls and scratches to give a mirror smooth finish to the clear coat where a wax or ceramic is a product that adds a protective layer over the clear coat.

If you wax or ceramic coat an unpolished surface you’re only protecting whatever lies beneath and if the surface is bad then that’s the look you’ll get.

Waxes can be easily removed but ceramics are not as they are designed to resist chemicals and they are hard to polish away so don’t be foolish and add a ceramic coating to your car if you can’t first prep the surface to a mirror finish.

Good quality brands of polish come in many grades of coarseness just like sand paper and it depends on the depth of the scratches to which grade you start with until you work down to a fine mirror finish.

Polishing pads for machines also come in different grades and the selection of the right pads also play a big part in combination with the choice of polish to achieve the desired result.

There are some cheap polishes available for hand use only and they just don’t cut it when it comes to getting a good finish and often they will be made up of fillers that fill the scratches to hide them but don’t actually permanently eliminate them.

Those fillers wash out in a few weeks and the swirls and scratches they were hiding reappear.

There are also cutting polishes that are a ‘jack of all trades’ which can be used by hand that’ll give reasonable results but are limited by only being available in one or two grades.

Deep scratches and swirls really need a machine and a number of grades of polish to get a quality job.

If you polish a car and don’t put a protective layer over the finished job then you have wasted your time as it will start to mark and swirl with the very next wash and the job needs to be done again.

Also when it comes to machine polishing you can only polish a car so many times before you eventually remove the clear coat or paint layer so a professional detailer will always check your paint thickness with a gauge prior to accepting a job where a machine is to be used.


So on to waxes and ceramics.

Ceramics have been around in the car detailing business for over 10 years and in recent times have really become a massive money spinner.

There are so many brands of nano-ceramics on the market now it has become mind boggling and everyone from car yards to detailers are pushing them to make a buck.

They are effective and do a good job but don’t hold up very well to the advertising promises that go with them.


Ceramics

Pros

Offers high protection from UV damage and oxidisation caused by the sun which helps reduce dull and faded paint.

Can to some extent keep contaminants from bonding to the vehicle’s paint helping to reduce etching and staining.

Has hydrophobic properties which means it helps repels water by beading and sliding off more easily and this property also does the same with mud and grime which can make cleaning easier.

It’s optically perfect which means it’s capable of enhancing the reflective properties of your car’s clear coat.

Ceramic coatings are not only for paintwork but can also be used on glass, plastics, alloy rims and helps repel brake dust.


Cons

Its scratch resistance is more often than not exaggerated and poor washing techniques and automated car washes will still create swirls and marks on the paint surface which will dull the shine.

It is not resistant to stone chips or scratching from other means therefore you need a Car Bra or paint protection film to deal with this type of issue.

It will not eliminate water marks as it’s not completely hydrophobic and the minerals and salts that are left behind when the beaded water evaporates will still etch into the surface if the car isn’t washed regularly.

It doesn’t eliminate the need to wash the car regularly or to quickly remove contaminants like bird poo and tree sap along with water marks as they will all leave marks if left on the surface and you still need to be careful and gentle with your washing techniques.

It needs at a minimum yearly maintenance to maintain its protective qualities.

It is more time consuming to polish out the swirls and marks.


Further

Ceramics in reality will last about a year on a daily weather beaten vehicle and about 2 years on a daily that is garaged even though many suppliers will say anywhere from 2 years to 7.

Also poor application can see the surface lose its protection in a few months so be sure you use a reputable detailer.


Carnauba Wax

Pros

Where ceramics are a man-made chemical process carnauba wax is a natural non-toxic substance that sets as hard concrete.

It uses the lotus effect to bead water and has very high hydrophobic properties.

It has high UV properties.

It is slightly opaque in colour which alters the reflection of light from the clear coat giving a warm look to red, yellow and orange colours and a real depth to dark coloured cars including black.

It protects alloy rims by repelling dirty water, grime and brake dust (I used to wax my polished US Racing Mags back in the 70’s to stop them from tarnishing and it worked great).

It’s easy to remove and easy to apply and a very light hand polish should be all you need to get the surface looking good again when reapplying.

Good quality carnauba wax can be layered 2 to 3 times to improve its protective qualities.

It can be used as sacrificial coat over a ceramic and will soften the stark look from the optical perfect ceramic coat (if that’s your taste).


Cons

It is subject to all the swirls, scratches and etching in the same manner as a ceramic and requires the same type of care when washing.

None of its properties last as long ceramics and some of the properties that it shares with ceramics doesn’t meet the same highs but in saying that, ceramic coating was designed by NASA for extremes that earth bound vehicles will never encounter.

It can attract dust to the surface in areas where dust is prevalent.


Further

Carnauba wax is naturally hard and is blended with things like beeswax to make it pliable for use and it comes in various grades depending on how much carnauba is added by volume.

The higher the carnauba percentage the stronger the protection and the higher the purchase price.

A wax containing about 30% carnauba will need to be reapplied about every 10 to 12 weeks on a daily driven weather beaten vehicle.

A wax containing around 60% carnauba will last up to 6 months.

On vehicles that are garaged and are not daily driven that lifespan between applications greatly increases.

If the vehicle is a much loved garage queen then why apply a ceramic when instead you can have the show car look of a high quality carnauba wax and have a hands on relationship with the car by doing it yourself.

If the car is only occasionally driven on sunny days and washed one in a blue moon the wax will last for 5 or 6 years before another application is required.


An example of a good wax is the Swissvax Concorso 48% carnauba @ $334.99 for 200ml (current price at Care Car Products) - 6 to 8 months between applications.

I use Dodo Juice Supernatural @ $169.99 for 200ml on a number of cars and the 200ml container lasts me about 3 years.

Remember these waxes go a long way as very little is needed to cover a vehicle.

Really high end waxes which I have no experience with will cost in the thousands of dollars.

Below is a list of a few other good brands for the home enthusiast.


Chemical Guys

Pinnacle

P21S

Zymol



Layering Products

Waxes

First off I’ll start with waxes.

Cheap waxes can’t be layered.

Meguiar’s can’t be layered – their forum tells you their product can’t be layered as it contains solvents that strip and clean the surface as each layer is applied therefore meaning every time you apply a layer you strip the previous one.

Most other chain store variety of waxes also can’t be layered for the same reason.

These cheaper waxes also have a very short lifespan and require regular applications.

Higher priced waxes with higher carnauba content can often be layered 2 or 3 times but no further and the manufacturer’s websites will tell you which are capable of layering and the necessary procedure required.

Most will have a minimum of 24 hours curing before the next layer.


Layering Protective Coatings

Detailing and car forums are rife with disagreement on this subject so I tend to go along with the manufacturer’s recommendations and some common sense.

First off layering a ceramic coat over carnauba wax will never work as the wax contains oils which means the ceramic will not bond properly and will wash away after a few weeks.

The same applies to any poorly prepared or unclean surfaces as the ceramic requires a perfectly clean surface otherwise it can’t adhere to the paintwork.

When it comes to layering ceramic coats over itself I go with what the manufacturer specifies.

I’ve not used optic-coat for years but you used to be able to layer it if you gave a minimum of 24 hours between coats and I would do the same with the rims.

I don’t know if that’s still the case and if I was to ever use the product again I would contact them to find out if it still can be layered.

I read where some brands of ceramic coatings don’t like to be layered and are a one application only deal.

Again always check with the manufacturer first if you’re doing it yourself.


Now to layering wax over a ceramic coat.

I was taught years ago by a very good detailer of the advantages of layering carnauba wax over ceramic coatings and I know there are many people that say it is a total waste of time, money and product but I would still prefer to do it simply for the fact it softens the stark look of the ceramic and I’m prepared to take the extra time and spend that little bit more cash just to achieve that look.

I don’t use ceramic any more as I’m retired and my cars clock minimal miles and spend their life in a garage or shed and wax does the job for me and better still provides the finish I love.

I used to layer wax over Opti-Coat without any problems.

The really strong argument you hear against it is that ceramics are design to make everything slide off and therefore wax won’t adhere and you also hear arguments like it smears and streaks and it lessen the properties of the ceramic coat.

Still there is a strong following of car enthusiasts that believe a sacrificial layer or two of wax over the ceramic is a good idea but they are mainly shouted down on forums by the guys who say it isn’t possible.

Now I’m not going to say you can layer wax over all brands of ceramic coating as I’d have to approach each manufacturer to find that out but I know it is possible with some.

So what I’ll do is embed a video at the end of this post which has two fellows discussing layering and one of them is Yvan Lacroix the Optimum Polymer Technologies Global Director of Training in Quebec saying that you can definitely layer wax over Opti-Coat.

Optimum for those who don’t know is the manufacturer of Opti-Coat.


I hope this has helped some members and remember that your choice to use ceramic or wax is your choice and will depend on your own needs but understand that as good as ceramic coatings are, they’ll never be anywhere as good as the people trying to make money out of selling them to you make it out to be.

So be aware, no matter whether you choose ceramic or wax both will require your time and care in looking after your car and washing it carefully or you will end up with dull paintwork and be left scratching your head along with many people already out there wondering why their ‘last forever’ ceramic coating doesn’t look as good as it did 6 months ago.

Also you need to make the time each year and I would guest pay for the maintenance work to keep it fresh which can be a negative compared to adding some wax.


Like oils ain’t oils, waxes and polishes also ain’t waxes and polishes.

How their properties perform and how long they last will depend on what you purchase and just because something has a higher price point it doesn’t mean it isn’t cost effective as it may outlast and out preform the cheaper item making it overall far better value.

Cheap chain store waxes and polishes give waxing and polishing a bad name and eventually these retailers will jump on board the ceramic coating trend and possibly cheapen it as well.








.
 
Last edited:

426Cuda

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Paint protection is often misunderstood and most of it is because of misleading advertising and people not really understanding the products that are available.

Before I get into what is considered to be the pros and cons of ceramic coatings versus carnauba wax and layering of products I will first touch on an area where some people get confused and that is polish.

A polish is not a wax or a ceramic coating it’s an abrasive substance used to shine a surface by removing swirls and scratches to give a mirror smooth finish to the clear coat where a wax or ceramic is a product that adds a protective layer over the clear coat.

If you wax or ceramic coat an unpolished surface you’re only protecting whatever lies beneath and if the surface is bad then that’s the look you’ll get.

Waxes can be easily removed but ceramics are not as they are designed to resist chemicals and they are hard to polish away so don’t be foolish and add a ceramic coating to your car if you can’t first prep the surface to a mirror finish.

Good quality brands of polish come in many grades of coarseness just like sand paper and it depends on the depth of the scratches to which grade you start with until you work down to a fine mirror finish.

There are some cheap polishes for hand use only and they just don’t cut it when it comes to getting a good finish and often they will be made up of fillers that fill the scratches to hide them but don’t actually permanently eliminate them.

Those fillers wash out in a few weeks and the swirls and scratches they were hiding reappear.

There are also cutting polishes that are a ‘jack of all trades’ which can be used by hand that’ll give reasonable results but are limited by only being available in one or two grades.

Deep scratches and swirls really need a machine and a number of grades of polish to get a quality job.

If you polish a car and don’t put a protective layer over the finished job then you have wasted your time as it will start to mark and swirl with the very next wash and the job needs to be done again.

Also when it comes to machine polishing you can only polish a car so many times before you eventually remove the clear coat or paint layer so a professional detailer will always check your paint thickness with a gauge prior to accepting a job where a machine is to be used.


So on to waxes and ceramics.

Ceramics have been around in the car detailing business for over 10 years and in recent times have really become a massive money spinner.

There are so many brands of nano-ceramics on the market now it has become mind boggling and everyone from car yards to detailers are pushing them to make a buck.

They are effective and do a good job but don’t hold up very well to the advertising promises that go with them.


Ceramics

Pros

Offers high protection from UV damage and oxidisation caused by the sun which helps reduce dull and faded paint.

Can to some extent keep contaminants from bonding to the vehicle’s paint helping to reduce etching and staining.

Has hydrophobic properties which means it helps repels water by beading and sliding off more easily and this property also does the same with mud and grime which can make cleaning easier.

It’s optically perfect which means it’s capable of enhancing the reflective properties of your car’s clear coat.

Ceramic coatings are not only for paintwork but can also be used on glass, plastics, alloy rims and helps repel brake dust.


Cons

Its scratch resistance is more often than not exaggerated and poor washing techniques and automated car washes will still create swirls and marks on the paint surface which will dull the shine.

It is not resistant to stone chips or scratching from other means therefore you need a Car Bra or paint protection film to deal with this type of issue.

It will not eliminate water marks as it’s not completely hydrophobic and the minerals and salts that are left behind when the beaded water evaporates will still etch into the surface if the car isn’t washed regularly.

It doesn’t eliminate the need to wash the car regularly or to quickly remove contaminants like bird poo and tree sap along with water marks as they will all leave marks if left on the surface and you still need to be careful and gentle with your washing techniques.

It needs at a minimum yearly maintenance to maintain its protective qualities.

It is more time consuming to polish out the swirls and marks.


Further

Ceramics in reality will last about a year on a daily weather beaten vehicle and about 2 years on a daily that is garaged even though many suppliers will say anywhere from 2 years to 7.

Also poor application can see the surface lose its protection in a few months so be sure you use a reputable detailer.


Carnauba Wax

Pros

Where ceramics are a man-made chemical process carnauba wax is a natural non-toxic substance that sets as hard concrete.

It uses the lotus effect to bead water and has very high hydrophobic properties.

It has high UV properties.

It is slightly opaque in colour which alters the reflection of light from the clear coat giving a warm look to red, yellow and orange colours and a real depth to dark coloured cars including black.

It protects alloy rims by repelling dirty water, grime and brake dust (I used to wax my polished US Racing Mags back in the 70’s to stop them from tarnishing and it worked great).

It’s easy to remove and easy to apply and a very light hand polish should be all you need to get the surface looking good again when reapplying.

Good quality carnauba wax can be layered 2 to 3 times to improve its protective qualities.

It can be used as sacrificial coat over a ceramic and will soften the stark look from the optical perfect ceramic coat (if that’s your taste).


Cons

It is subject to all the swirls, scratches and etching in the same manner as a ceramic and requires the same type of care when washing.

None of its properties last as long ceramics and some of the properties that it shares with ceramics doesn’t meet the same highs but in saying that, ceramic coating was designed by NASA for extremes that earth bound vehicles will never encounter.

It can attract dust to the surface in areas where dust is prevalent.


Further

Carnauba wax is naturally hard and is blended with things like beeswax to make it pliable for use and is comes in various grades depending on how much carnauba is added by volume.

The higher the carnauba percentage the stronger the protection and the higher the purchase price.

A wax containing about 30% carnauba will need to be reapplied about every 10 to 12 weeks on a daily driven weather beaten vehicle.

A wax containing around 60% carnauba will last up to 6 months.

On vehicles that are garaged and are not daily driven that lifespan between applications greatly increases.

If the vehicle is a much loved garage queen then why apply a ceramic when instead you can have the show car look of a high quality carnauba wax and have a hands on relationship with the car by doing it yourself.

If the car is only occasionally driven on sunny days and washed one in a blue moon the wax will last for 5 or 6 years before another application is required.


An example of a good wax is the Swissvax Concorso 48% carnauba @ $334.99 for 200ml (current price at Care Car Products) - 6 to 8 months between applications.

I use Dodo Juice Supernatural @ $169.99 for 200ml on a number of cars and the 200ml container lasts me about 3 years.

Remember these waxes go a long way as very little is needed to cover a vehicle.

Really high end waxes which I have no experience with will cost in the thousands of dollars.

Below is a list of a few other good brands for the home enthusiast.


Chemical Guys

Pinnacle

P21S

Zymol



Layering Products

Waxes

First off I’ll start with waxes.

Cheap waxes can’t be layered.

Meguiar’s can’t be layered – their forum tells you their product can’t be layered as it contains solvents that strip and clean the surface as each layer is applied therefore meaning every time you apply a layer you strip the previous one.

Most other chain store variety of waxes also can’t be layered for the same reason.

These cheaper waxes also have a very short lifespan and require regular applications.

Higher priced waxes with higher carnauba content can often be layered 2 or 3 times but no further and the manufacturer’s websites will tell you which are capable of layering and the necessary procedure required.

Most will have a minimum of 24 hours curing before the next layer.


Layering Protective Coatings

Detailing and car forums are rife with disagreement on this subject so I tend to go along with the manufacturer’s recommendations and some common sense.

First off layering a ceramic coat over carnauba wax will never work as the wax contains oils which means the ceramic will not bond properly and will wash away after a few weeks.

The same applies to any poorly prepared or unclean surfaces as the ceramic requires a perfectly clean surface otherwise it can’t adhere to the paintwork.

When it comes to layering ceramic coats over itself I go with what the manufacturer specifies.

I’ve not used optic-coat for years but you used to be able to layer it if you gave a minimum of 24 hours between coats and I would do the same with the rims.

I don’t know if that’s still the case and if I was to ever use the product again I would contact them to find out if it still can be layered.

I read where some brands of ceramic coatings don’t like to be layered and are a one application only deal.

Again always check with the manufacturer first if you’re doing it yourself.


Now to layering wax over a ceramic coat.

I was taught years ago by a very good detailer of the advantages of layering carnauba wax over ceramic coatings and I know there are many people that say it is a total waste of time, money and product but I would still prefer to do it simply for the fact it softens the stark look of the ceramic and I’m prepared to take the extra time and spend that little bit more cash just to achieve that look.

I don’t use ceramic any more as I’m retired and my cars clock minimal miles and spend their life in a garage or shed and wax does the job for me and better still provides the finish I love.

I used to layer wax over Opti-Coat without any problems.

The really strong argument you hear against it is that ceramics are design to make everything slide off and therefore wax won’t adhere and you also hear arguments like it smears and streaks and it lessen the properties of the ceramic coat.

Still there is a strong following of car enthusiasts that believe a sacrificial layer or two of wax over the ceramic is a good idea but they are mainly shouted down on forums by the guys who say it isn’t possible.

Now I’m not going to say you can layer wax over all brands of ceramic coating as I’d have to approach each manufacturer to find that out but I know it is possible with some.

So what I’ll do is embed a video at the end of this post which has two fellows discussing layering and one of them is Yvan Lacroix the Optimum Polymer Technologies Global Director of Training in Quebec saying that you can definitely layer wax over Opti-Coat.

Optimum for those who don’t know is the manufacturer of Opti-Coat.


I hope this has helped some members and remember that your choice to use ceramic or wax is your choice and will depend on your own needs but understand that as good as ceramic coatings are, they’ll never be anywhere as good as the people trying to make money out of selling them to you make it out to be.

So be aware, no matter whether you choose ceramic or wax both will require your time and care in looking after your car and washing it carefully or you will end up with dull paintwork and be left scratching your head along with many people already out there wondering why their ‘last forever’ ceramic coating doesn’t look as good as it did 6 months ago.

Also you need to make the time each year and I would guest pay for the maintenance work to keep it fresh which can be a negative compared to adding some wax.


Like oils ain’t oils, waxes and polishes also ain’t waxes and polishes.

How their properties preform and how long they last will depend on what you purchase and just because something has a higher price point it doesn’t mean it isn’t cost effective as it may outlast and out preform the cheaper item making it overall far better value.

Cheap chain store waxes and polishes give waxing and polishing a bad name and eventually these retailers will jump on board the ceramic coating trend and possible cheapen it as well.




.
Awesome stuff @panhead. Well done and thanks!
 

gungazza

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so whats the cost
 

Super Coach

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I had one of my cars PPF and then opticoat pro+ applied and I am in mixed results. I thought it would be better especially on the front windscreen which now has water marks on it. The black alloys are nowhere easy to clean as I thought.

So for my Motorsport I will still get the PPF and think i will go a ceramic and use Crystal Serum.
 
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