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Extractors and cats... *UPDATE Pg 6 Dyno Results

Discussion in 'VE Holden Commodore (2006 - 2013)' started by mikey-, Apr 8, 2013.

  1. mikey-

    mikey- Member

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    Extractors and cats... *UPDATE Pg 6 Final Video

    I currently have a VE SS with a twin 2.5" Walkinshaw cat back.

    I want to finish off the exhaust with extractors and cats.

    Now I'm not really here to ask what ones to buy, as I've read a million threads about pacemaker and hurricane and this and that and I have a fairly good idea of what parts to buy.

    What I do want to ask though is what makes some brands (or unbranded products) so cheap?

    I've been quoted around $1300ish for 1 7/8 hurricane extractors with manta cats to suit. Which I think is a pretty good price for what people agree to be a good product.

    But if I was to bust open the eBay, there is a few more cheaper options.

    eg. $830 (extractors and cats, no brand in add) HOLDEN COMMODORE VE V8 6.0L EXTRACTORS & CATS STAINLESS STEEL BRAND NEW | eBay

    eg. $1100 (extractors and cats, possibly x-force?) HOLDEN VE SS 6.0L V8 X-FORCE MILD STEEL EXTRACTORS & STAINLESS STEEL CATS | eBay

    Does anyone have any idea who produces these cheaper versions? Anyone tried using them? Do they give less power? Are they a crappy fitment? I really can't find any information of people saying either good, or bad things about these cheaper options.

    Any help appriciated, thanks.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  2. Tatiana

    Tatiana Administrator Staff Member

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    When it comes to any purchase in life I believe that you get what you pay for in most cases, sure you can get things on special etc. at times.

    It boils down to quality of materials and workmanship.

    You can buy a suit for instance from Harris Scarfe and pay around $100 or you can buy a suit from a Bespoke Tailor and pay $3000. Difference is in the fabric: cheap fabrics wrinkle when seated and don't last long whereas a cloth from the UK or Europe will not crease and last many years and still look new. Cut: a ready to wear suit is made to fit a generic size so won't always fit perfectly whereas a Bespoke suit is cut to your body shape so fits everywhere and you look sharp. Workmanship: a ready to wear suit is made on a production line with cheap threads and accessories, whereas a Bespoke one is hand sewn and basted with quality buttons and threads to last that much longer.

    (No I am not a Tailor)
     
  3. GEN3RATD

    GEN3RATD 100% Teflon

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    I wouldnt touch X-Force, I reckon youd be better off with the no name brands...

    Essentially, yeah you pretty much get what you pay for. Pacemaker make great tried and true headers. Not too sure where abouts in Perth you live, but my dad swears by Genie exhausts in Myaree, had one of there systems fitted up there on his VE SS while I had my sunroof fitted across the road... Can vouch it sounds good.

    For cats have a look at Ballastic/Venom 200cpi's if you want to keep it legal, or 100cpi if your after flat out performance...
     
  4. mikey-

    mikey- Member

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    I'd generally agree with most things in regard to getting what you pay for.

    I'm just trying to work out how you get more by getting di filippo (for example) rather than x-force (for example) extractors.

    I think it is alot different with a cat back, when mufflers and drone and other factors come into it. But extractors, they are just a mandrel bent set of pipes.
     
  5. mikey-

    mikey- Member

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    Is there a reason why though? Have you tried installing x-force extractors and had a bad fitment? Noticable drop in power or torque?
     
  6. GEN3RATD

    GEN3RATD 100% Teflon

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    I havent but PM Jesterarts or Not_An_Abba_Fan on here and they can give you an opinion...

    From what ive heard, **** fitment, **** quality, dont sound as good as other exhausts, just generally cheap and nasty.
     
  7. mikey-

    mikey- Member

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    I have already spoken with Not_An_Abba_Fan in regards to some pricing, but havn't spoken about other products, only was given a quote based on what parts he recomended, and he was very helpful.


    Not to be an knob as I appriciated the help regardless, but you responce is the exact reason I made this thread. Bagging the X-force product without any actual idea about how well it fits or performs. Don't get me wrong, I've personally seen how wonky some (not all) of the x-force cat backs hang, but I can't find any bad reports about their extractors?
     
  8. GEN3RATD

    GEN3RATD 100% Teflon

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    I can tell you how well they sound, and compared to a manta system they sound like a fart through a wet towel...

    Why not just get the walkinshaw ones and finish it off? wont void your warranty you know.
     
  9. Deuce

    Deuce Super Stock

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    as a mass generalisation, and not specific to anything for LS2 etc; here are my thoughts:

    1. the first point to look at is header size, obviously the bigger it is the more it can flow, but that is not what you are looking for. What you want is exhaust speed (velocity) so the headers need to be the 'correct' size.
    2. Also you need to look at quality. if the ports line up correctly, if it will bolt to the exhaust correctly etc.
    3. Design: the old rule was 'tri-Y's' tend to be good for the street and '4into1' for drag racing. But I also have heard that LS engines are an exception to this old rule of thumb.
    4. Stepped headers; as the exhaust gas gets further from the engine it cools more, so therefore it's velocity changes and your optimum exhaust header diameter changes, this is why stepped headers can be good, but obviously would take more work to build and in turn cost more when completed.
    5. Header length: there are in-depth calculations for header length from the exhaust valve to the point at were each individual pipe join's to it's next versus the maximum torque point in your rpm band. If someone has gone to great length to get these numbers correct, then it is only fair that there headers cost more. (R&D cost's etc)

    that is all I can think of for now, I hope this helps.
     
  10. mikey-

    mikey- Member

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    But the thread is about extractors?

    I had 1 5/8 tri-y pacemakers on my last SS and was never happy, always wanted a set of big pipes... I personally wouldn't be happy with the Walky ones. Car is already out of warranty, so that's not an issue.
     
  11. mikey-

    mikey- Member

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    With abit more looking at the extractor/cat combo for $830 I noticed they are also stainless.

    Struggling to understand this cheapness.

    They appear to be by a company called ultrex performance, do a heap of stainless import car exhaust stuff.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2013
  12. K-Man

    K-Man New Member

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    Just get some Pacemaker 1 3/4" - 4 into 1. Ive had 2 sets of pacies, they are awesome.

    / End
     
  13. itsagixa

    itsagixa New Member

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    The price difference is heavily related to the materials used, pacemaker may use a thicker material to construct their headers whereas those ebays ones may be thinner and as such would sound tinny.

    As above its simply down to the effort and r&d put into the development of the headers,
    from what i have read there is only a marginal diiference between the exhaust systems +-10kw (full system) so the headers would only have a range +-2-5kw difference between the manufacturers.

    Do you care about the 5kw? if not go for the cheap one
     
  14. Not_An_Abba_Fan

    Not_An_Abba_Fan Exhaust Guru

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    Basically, the difference in pricing is manufacturing costs and materials.

    X Force is made in China, as are Ultrex, (out of the same Chinese manufacturer I believe), The stainless steel used is a thin walled, higher "grade" stainless than proper exhaust grade stainless. It polishes up nice, looks pretty, but when you compare the actual quality in the build and the attention to how the pipes merge, you will see the difference.

    Australian made extractors are designed and manufactured here using a test vehicle. Most manufacturers will even flow test and dyno their extractors to produce optimum results.

    Imported extractors are generally a copy of an existing extractor that has had small changes to the design so as not to infringe on the original maker. You can't reinvent the wheel, it already exists, but you can make it look different.

    The biggest issue with imported extractors is the way they made in regards to flow. Pipe length, collector design, flange thickness etc, they all add to how the extractors perform. X Force (I am only using this brand as an example as I have removed enough of them and replaced with Pacemaker or Hurricane) have a collector that basically rams all the gases into one pipe rather than merging them. The collector is basically a 4" pipe that is formed to fit over the primary pipes and then welded. Pacemaker and Hurricane use a merge style collector that reduces slightly in diameter and directs the individual flows from the primaries into the collector. They also have an "arrow point" at the merge of the 4 pipes to aid flow. This extends the point at which the 4 pipes end and doesn't leave a void for a low pressure area to exist that will affect flow.

    China has lower manufacturing costs so what ever comes out of there will be cheaper than an Australian product. Simple economics. The difference between outsourcing manufacturing and just plain copying is the standard that is applied to the product. A lot of products are developed here but are manufactured in Asia to strict standards, these are mostly good quality products, extractors are not made this way. Chinese extractors (or exhausts for that matter) are made from a sample that an Australian company has sent over just to be able to put a cheaper product on the market without going through all the R&D themselves.

    Also, just to clarify, I sell a quality Australian product at a discounted price because I deal direct with the manufacturer and have no overheads. I don't sell cheap products, I just sell good products cheap.




    Disclaimer: In no way am I bagging Chinese products, merely pointing out the differences between local and imported products.
     
    Luvaduke and frogsta like this.
  15. turbodragon

    turbodragon Member

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    Not sure if it's been mentioned before but when I was building my R33, I was wondering why there was such a huge price difference between high-mount turbo manifolds ($1200+ VS $400).

    After researching, it came down to the welds and material grade and thickness. Not all, but alot of the cheaper manifolds couldn't withstand the intense heat (and actually supporting the weight of the turbo) and start developing cracks before eventually giving way.

    For that reason, I paid $1200 for a 6Boost tuned length exhaust manifold and had never looked back.


    Not sure how relevant it is with N/A V8s (no heat generated from turbo, no turbo weight to support) but I'm sure the cracking issue would probably still come into it at some stage or another.
     
  16. Kinng

    Kinng CrippleFK

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    Put it this way, Pacemaker extractors with Ceramic coating hasn't let me down on previous cars.

    Same with ballastic cats.

    Kinng
     
  17. mikey-

    mikey- Member

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    Thanks guys, will be purchasing non-cheapo products.

    *PM's NAAF
     
  18. Kinng

    Kinng CrippleFK

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    Thats the way man!

    Do it once, do it properly!

    Kinng
     
  19. mikey-

    mikey- Member

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    At the end of the day, we are only talking about a $400 difference between the absolutely cheapest chinese made parts, compared to parts an Aussie company has invested a heap of R&D into, and then manufactured to a higher standard.

    For the sake of $400 extra, I'm not sure I can be bothered risking it with the Chinese gear... I'm still not convinced though that it is as bad as some people try make it out to be though. Saving $400 on something that is a 100% waste of money... well, not much of a saving anymore.
     
  20. Stig

    Stig New Member

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    By the Way,what have u Decided on? I am also looking at finishing off my 3 inch Catback ,Xforce,,,,,Looking at 1/78 Hurricane Headers and Manta Cats,,,Is that what you were quoted for? Is that Stainless.
     

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