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[Ecotec] Help stuck at 230kw only $2700 left in budget

Discussion in 'V6 Development And Modification' started by Lazin, Apr 25, 2011.

  1. Adam_88

    Adam_88 soon to be boosted

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    agreed, id be saving my pennys for a whipple and aluminium heads
     
  2. Lazin

    Lazin New Member

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    Definitely not planning on pushing baby blower an harder.
    Totaly forgot about meth/water inj decent kits are about $400 i think?
    Damn more options!
    "W2A intercooling is a lot more efficient than A2A when done properly." So do mace do it properly?
    I've spoken to them a couple times, use and rate their TBs, & MAFs but would like someone who has one of their W2A coolers opinions
     
  3. one_and_only2004

    one_and_only2004 Turbo L98 FTW

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    I haven't dealt with their blower applications but I always thought they just sold the plate that goes in between the blower and the motor, and you make up your own intercooler setup. My old ute was tuned through chiptorque and they said A2A intercooled top mount blowers go a bit funny due to the throttle being before the charger (I didn't really know or care what they were talking about at the time) but they said they were on top of it - and this was close to a year ago.

    W2A intercooling is a lot harder to make from scratch too - you've got your radiator, pumps, reservoirs, Intercooler and plumbing to worry about - which is also a lot of weight. You loose about .2psi through the system though, which is very efficient. I've seen some systems with a 1% pressure drop on the internet.
    A2A requires an intercooler and plumbing - I managed to get a mate of mine in Brisbane to do the whole thing for me, it cost $1500 using stainless steel piping TIG welded including all the brackets and intercooler. It lost about 1psi in a 10psi system, but gained about 60NM of torque. using silicon and alloy piping you could do it for a fair bit cheaper I reckon.
     
  4. delcowizzid

    delcowizzid on holiday

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    air to air is the best way for the street theres so much air round to cool your charge water to air is good if you can keep the water cold with ice but most w2a kits for l67 are a restriction in the inlet under the blower its only a small hole under there why block it with a radiator in there LOL.i myself would stop spending money on the charger and sell it heads and all and go turbo like suggested above youll gain more than your 50Hp extra straight away LOL
     
  5. westerlybreeze

    westerlybreeze Member

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    My 2cents would be turbo :rockon:

    But that depends if you like the superchargers early torque addition or want to chase more hp.
    I saw a clip on youtube of a guy in the states blocking off the water gallery from the lower manifold into the S/C. (This lowers intake air temps a little of the S/C and T/B).
    Do the Aussie M90's have this water gallery to block off?
     
  6. Lazin

    Lazin New Member

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    Yeah but the water doesnt go in the blower just touches the mating face, a mace spacer would block it.

    and I do love the ista torque I have at the moment, don't want or need 400+ hp, high 300s with plenty of low down, I drive it every day in Syd.

    Also trying to keep it original holden/Gm parts when possible.

    I think IC and/or WaterM inj with rockers and retune should get me there.
     
  7. chargedvx6

    chargedvx6 Active Member

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    I think intercooling is essential at this stage. You have a low comp bottom end which is great and will also aid in efficiency with the boost. Efficiency will also aid in providing less restriction to the blower output too........food for thought.

    Just how small is your cam? Can you provide some rough duration specs. Lift isn't really that relevant with these engines imo as it's the duration and intake centreline that allow the blower to flow through hence why it's called forced induction lol.

    Considering you have a 4.2L you may need a cam that can breathe more to allow everything else around it to do its job better but that's only if your existing cam is really weeny.

    So at this point bare minimum I'd be cooling it and setting it up for E85. A 2L surge, 044, 4.5m -6 braid fuel line and $150 of dash fittings, adjustable fuel reg, 60# injectors and a tune will see your torque figure where it should be. It looks to be way under to me for the mods you have and this is a sign of some major inefficiencies going on in your set up i.e. too much heat.

    I may have missed it but is the car tuned at this stage? Who did the tune if you don't mind me asking?
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2011
  8. MACE

    MACE Well-Known Member

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    As chargedvx6 has mentioned cam specs are needed first to be able to make an accurate decision.
     
  9. Lazin

    Lazin New Member

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    While I was building the 4.2 my old engine died and so it went in with what i had lying around this was the cam.
    Lift
    Int .308 - 1.6:1 =.493
    Ex .308
    Dur @ .050
    Int 216
    Ex 220
    Int cent 108
    Ex cent 116
    Lobe Cent sep 112
     
  10. sircruisealotVS

    sircruisealotVS Well-Known Member

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    That cam isn't exactly tiny - for a street driven car (im under the impression that it is) that will keep the torque right where you want it. I'd say to leave it be and focus on temperature issues, get the best intake temps you can with the current setup in an intercooled form. Maybe even ceramic coat the exhaust to stop heat sink and keep the exhaust scavenging to it's fullest potential. Actually - i just read back and can't see what exhaust you have...if it's not a full twin setup that's something to consider as well.
    Your torque seems to be really low for a blown stroker, so you need to unlock that potential. When i had my blown 4.2L it made pretty much exactly the same power, but a good 100nm more torque than your making.
     
  11. chargedvx6

    chargedvx6 Active Member

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    I run a cam like this on my stock capacity L67 and it's awesome for daily driver duties.

    212°/224° at .050"
    Intake Lift .325" (.520" lift at 1.6:1 rocker ratio)
    Exhaust Lift .335" (.536" lift at 1.6:1 rocker ratio)
    116 Lobe Separation


    That said even though your cam is a tad conservative for my liking I doubt it's causing your lack of torque.

    E85 and a cooler (either W2A or A2A) will change the car for the better. Even if you don't splash out on the E85 a well thought out and set up cooler is essential at this stage! Maybe look at further porting of the blower if it isn't a great kinda job. I could hook you up with someone who I have a lot of faith in with regards to M90 porting
     
  12. Lazin

    Lazin New Member

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    Stuffed up formula should be around 505nm

    5252 X 308hp /3200rpm =505nm still a bit low.

    SirCruisealot. I'm running Pacemakers, Single 3" Exhaust.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2011
  13. acarmody

    acarmody Donati..Whoa Green

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    I'm not altogether familiar with cam design but isn't an LSA of 112 a bit to much overlap for a FI engine.

    Twin cats? With the amount of power your making, I would be thinking twin 2.5" territory.
     
  14. 0081

    0081 New Member

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    If your worries about the space under the hood for the A2A plate you can get some K frame spacers to get you that extra room.

    if you only have around $1500 then your going to struggle to get a A2A plate and piping. keep an eye out on ebay as i got mine for $300 but it was the steel of the year.

    I think your beat bet it to get your $1500 and stretch it out to around $1900. for that i think you could get a LS1 throttle body (if you dont have something like that now) and pipe to sute, A2A cooler piping and a FMI, smaller pulley and a DIY port on the elbow and more on the charger if you can.

    do you have any pics of the charger porting you have now???

    If you have $4000 you could go a TVS or whipple.
     
  15. sircruisealotVS

    sircruisealotVS Well-Known Member

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    Definately consider going twins mate - it will really help, particularly with the spead of torque. I upgraded from a full exhaust with pacemakers, single hi flow cat and 2 1/2" catback to a twin hi flow cat and twin 2 1/4" pipes and it made the world of difference. Shouldn't cost too much to do either - mine was about $600 and that was for two new hi flow cats, two straight through mufflers and the custom setup of the twin 2 1/4" pipes (which are quite hard to fit on a non irs VS).
    You could definately consider twin 2 1/2" but space is an issue on the VS.
     
  16. Lazin

    Lazin New Member

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    (LSA 112) It was an NA cam but as I said I made do, which is why i was thinking ditch it for a more FI based cam.
    Don't think twin 2 1/2 will fit, 2 1/4 might.
    If I get the heat out through an IC, a bit of cool mist and as you said twin cats and twin 2 1/4.
    Thats about a total of $2400 and a weekends labour $1200 for a re-tune and I should be cooking with out heat!
    Then I can think about the poor neglected paint.

    0081. I have 70 TB and MAF the intake elbow is well smoothed and polished as is intake side of blower outlet smoothed and gasket matched,
    running 2.4:1 drive ratio on blower if I go a smaller pulley it will just blow more heat no more air left.

    Chargedvx6 If I put 1.7:1 Rockers on it would have pretty much the same figures just different Lobe sep could make a bit of difference?

    Thanks for all the input guys if you come up with anything else please add.

    Sill waiting to hear from someone with a mace IC?
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2011
  17. sircruisealotVS

    sircruisealotVS Well-Known Member

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    I just noticed you saying $1200 for a re-tune - dear god thats expensive! I expect around the grand mark for an initial custom tune, but re-tunes shouldn't cost that much. Where do you go and what are you using?(ie, kalmaker?)
    I remember having my VS re-tuned a few times and it was usually ~$400 for two hours of custom tuning because the base custom tune had already been done and the workshops chip already in place - this is at Chiptorque in QLD.
     
  18. chargedvx6

    chargedvx6 Active Member

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    0081. I have 70 TB and MAF the intake elbow is well smoothed and polished as is intake side of blower outlet smoothed and gasket matched,
    running 2.4:1 drive ratio on blower if I go a smaller pulley it will just blow more heat no more air left.

    Chargedvx6 If I put 1.7:1 Rockers on it would have pretty much the same figures just different Lobe sep could make a bit of difference?

    Thanks for all the input guys if you come up with anything else please add.

    Sill waiting to hear from someone with a mace IC?[/QUOTE]

     
  19. MACE

    MACE Well-Known Member

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    Good cam if you never plan on intercooling, or plan on running a larger blower/twin charge

    I say this as the overlap it has tries to keep the combustion chamber cooler by allowing the intake charge to blow through right out the exhaust.

    Comes down to a few things.

    Do you plan on ever upgrading the blower down the track (or running an additional one)? If so then I would keep the cam you have and go for the best cooler you can afford at the moment (ideally A2A)

    If not then I suggest you change the cam before going down the cooling path. Reasons for this is that you have a stroker engine, lower comp, coupled with the cam you have and M90.

    I've seen a similar combo struggle to make around the 200rwkw running our mega blizzard intercooler, simply because the M90 didn't have enough puff with that combo.

    Hope this helps

    Cheers,
    Steve
     
  20. chargedvx6

    chargedvx6 Active Member

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    Mace makes a good point. Nothing wrong with setting gear shifts to 4500rpm if that's all the blower's good to. Not joking. I tried it a while back and it gets through the gears very quickly when you are making good torque.
     

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