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[Alloytec] Real SIDI conversion

Discussion in 'V6 Development And Modification' started by Callum433, Jun 29, 2018.

  1. Callum433

    Callum433 New Member

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    Ok. So before any of you jump in with silly responses like not worth it or just do LS I'm not interested. I personally don't like V8 so it's off the table. Now to real reason I'm posting. I'm going to be buying a commodore soon as a project car for cheap. Now it'll either be a vs or a vz as I haven't decided yet. either way I go be putting in an SIDI engine. Not one from aus but an SIDI 3.6 v6 none the less. I'm not an expert in commodores and would like some advise (other than don't or its pricey) on how difficult it would be to put one in either vehicle. I'd assume slightly easier in the vz as they already have the alloytec but the more info I can get the better. Thanks in advance
     
  2. xauterus

    xauterus New Member

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    I like the idea of the alloytec in the vs chassis. You can pick up a blown one cheap for fitment. Wiring is what I would struggle with.
     
  3. Callum433

    Callum433 New Member

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    I've done plenty of wiring over the years through school electronics and even done basic wiring on a few more simple engine swaps. Doing a twin turbo build of an SIDI soon and just thought I'd like around and see if anyone has done it before
     
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  4. xauterus

    xauterus New Member

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    I look forward to updates
     
  5. Callum433

    Callum433 New Member

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    Been doing some digging of late and have some promising new. I spoke to Steve at mace a fair bit and plenty of other guys about some of the issues I was running into. One of them is ecu, now this isn't garenteed but Steve reckoned that wolf might be coming out with a new standalone tunable ecu for the SIDI engine commies and this could make my whole project 10 times easier. I did email wolf directly to get an answer and surprisingly was told that they couldn't disclose that information and to watch the catalogue. Who knows he might just be right.
     
  6. xauterus

    xauterus New Member

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    I thought an adaptionic would run the sidi ok.
     
  7. Callum433

    Callum433 New Member

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    Nah you have to get special ones to handle direct injection due to the way the system works
     
  8. _R_J_K_

    _R_J_K_ Well-Known Member

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    Should email Adaptronic directly as you'll typically get a response from an engineer (probably Andy the owner), the new Modular ECUs are the goods and likely have something to cover it.
     
  9. MACE

    MACE Well-Known Member

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    Motec definitely offers support for direct injection engines, as a customer of ours runs one in his speedway car (VE Commodore SIDI).

    Cheers,
    Steve
     
  10. rtmpgt

    rtmpgt New Member

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    If you're going to go an SIDI Alloytec, I'd suggest using the LLT as it's got the older style headers, meaning if you wanted to do an NA build, you can get Paceys for it. LLTs are found in the 2009-2011 Series 1.5 cars. (those intermediate ones between Series 1 and Series 2). They're also seen in the 5th gen Camaros as well, meaning there's a ton of options for it. If headers aren't an issue the LFX would also be a great option since it's got built-in headers, meaning you only have to route a single pipe on either side of the engine for exhaust plumbing. Since that was also used in a Camaro, it's super easy to get options for it.

    If you want a Manual (which, of course you do) your most likely source is going to be a wrecked ute. Utes are the most common cars to find manuals in. Although, you can't treat the Aisin AY6 box like a T56 or TR6060. (If someone could make a bell housing adapter, that'd be sick.)

    Automatic wise, do not get a five speed. These boxes are absolute AIDS. (Hydraulic pump failures are the biggest cause of failure for these boxes since they're paired with an engine that puts out close to the maximum amount of torque that the 5L40E can handle) If you want to go auto, i'd suggest getting a 3.0L with the 4L60E from a Series 1 Omega, or a DI 3.6L and 6L50E from a Series 2. This means you'd most likely have to run the stock ECU as far as i know as it may talk to the Gearbox via GMLAN... Although, I could be wrong here.

    As for DI ECUs? As MACE mentioned, MoTec works well with DI systems if you need something standalone. Not sure if a Haltech would work either, but Haltechs tend to work well with GM sensors, and many people tend to use them on LS swap builds for Jap cars. Although, whether or not they'll talk to a DI injector is beside me. Also you have to consider that an LLT has four variable cams with four phasers, so whatever ECU you do decide to use, it's going to be mucho expensivo as you'd need a shitload of inputs and outputs. LSs have much fewer sensors on them. As far as I know though, you'd have to run Manual boxes with any standalone setup.

    The next issue would be getting engine mount adapters made to suit your subframe, and getting a transmission mount made. This engine's also much lighter than the Ecotec or the 5L, so you'd also need to get your front suspension retuned too. You'd also need to install a drive-by-wire pedal, somehow adapt the quick-release clutch line to the stock VS pedal (not needed if you're going auto of course), wire it all up, get a driveshaft made, and then pass it over the pits. You will most definitely pass seeing as the Alloytec has a smaller capacity, and is plain old newer than both the 5L and 3.8L. If your state has power to weight restrictions for swaps, swapping a VS SS or Statesman would be much easier since the 5L and Alloytec have roughly the same power output. Otherwise your tuner can do one dyno run to keep the feds happy, and another to keep you happy. (That's what one of my mates is doing for his LS swapped R31 Skyline)

    Whatever happens though, this'll be a freaking sick build. Alloytecs are solid little engines when looked after, and being in a VS, you've got a somewhat lightweight frame with a decently grunty engine. You'll actually lose weight with the swap too, at least 60-80kg if you go a manual.
     
  11. stick3

    stick3 Active Member

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  12. rtmpgt

    rtmpgt New Member

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    **** yeah, that's everything you need! Also, LY7s ain't bad either. Find a manual one and you're set!
     
  13. Callum433

    Callum433 New Member

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    You guys have actually helped a heap with info massive thanks to Steve and rtmpgt you guys have definitely pointed me in the right direction. As for llt vs ly7 yes I'm aware of the llt, I have been extensively looking into the whole 3.6 GM engine line all the way up to the cadillac lf3 and lf4 witch are basically twin turbo ve/vf engines that make 400+ factory haha but thanks heaps for the conversions website I'm hoping it's not too expensive. The other problem you run into with going llt is that there are no injector upgrades so you end up being stuck around 400-450hp and the only hpfp upgrade is to go the V8 lt1 or lt4 pumps or modify the intake and add a whole nother set of port feed injectors. Id love to see if theres a way to use the 4 phase heads on the llt with port injectors but afaik they have very different intakes I believe? Correct if I'm wrong. As for trans yeah there's nothing yet for bolting on a t56 but I know the ay6s are good for about 450tq so decent enough. I was definitely planning on going turbo possibly twin for ease but unsure yet as single turbo kits are insanely expensive and I can weld haha. Any other suggestions for a trans or way to Frankenstein the best of all the engines together lol would be great hoping to crack open the world to the possibilities of the alloytec as the only reason the knock is bad Morse timing chain (mace make a billet or aftermarket one? Correct me stece) and the heads basically can't breath so they gunk up. Add a catch can and the oil can actually last longer than a year from my research. Keep the info coming guys
     
  14. rtmpgt

    rtmpgt New Member

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    Glad we can help!
    Any engine swap is going to be more expensive than you think it is.

    Even if you do an LS swap, it's going to be through-the-ass expensive. But, if you've got the dosh to do it, anything is possible.

    Twin injectors would be sick, but the control systems associated with that would S U C K to tune, unless you know what you're doing. Also, that'd just add complexity. You're already getting 300-ish hp with an LLT conversion, and the VS is a pretty light platform to begin with. Put it this way, the LLT is about as powerful as some of the HSV 5L V8s of the day, and believe you me, those cars were no slouches.

    The intake designs between LLT and LY7s are completely different. The heads on the LLT breathe better anyway.

    You can weld, but can you weld cleanly. You have to remember just how friggin'hot turbo manifolds get. That means any dags of weld inside the tubing can break off and furk your turbo impeller. Also, for packaging's sake, twins would be easier. However i'd sort out getting replacement rods and pistons if you're boosting. LLTs and LY7s have very high comp ratios, 11.2:1 and 10.2:1 respectively. Also, the bottom ends tend to go if there's any oil starvation so I'd suggest running a separate oil system for your turbos. That's what Goat Performance does with their twin kits.

    But once again, that adds to your costs.

    There's lots of reasons that they knock. Alloytecs are oil sensitive engines, one major drop in oil pressure and they're toast. I cooked my current LLT because of Rod 6 developing a knock. The two big end bearings on Rod 6 decided to cuddle up and become best friends. It's a shame that friendship cost me a perfectly good engine.

    The issue with that is the PCV. LFX and onwards don't have this issue because GM corrected the PCV with a bigger one. The heads flow air into the combustion chamber perfectly fine, in fact they can flow quite well, however it's the PCV system that has issues. Consider that this was once a FWD engine used in Saabs in East-West config. (the 2.8t was the first alloytec, followed by Alfa Romeo's 3.2 JTS, both transverse applications) GM had to design a bunch of other **** to get it to work in a north-south (RWD) application. It wasn't intended to be mounted perfectly vertically in the engine bay, rather at a bit of a slant. This is why the thermostat's in a real shitty place, it also is why they have to use a cartridge oil filter, because the ordinary location for the oil filter in FWD applications would hit the crossmembers in the Zeta platform subframe.

    The inequal PCV ventilation between both banks means that one side has a reduced ability to vent crankcase pressure to the intake, and thus it results in your engine getting all tarred up on the inside. This is why you absolutely should change your oil every 5,000kms, even with a catch can.

    Also, use a good oil. None of this cheap ****. Penrite HPR5 5w30 fully synthetic, at least.

    Best way to tell that someone's poorly maintained their alloytec? Crack the rocker covers off of any older, high mileage example and you'll see that one side will almost always be darker than the other. That's the side with the **** ventilation. that means the PCV's about to block off, which'll cause more of that black **** to go into the oil pickup, into the tiny little timing chain tensioner ports and thus, stretchy stretchy fun times.

    Catch cans aren't all created equal either, you need to use one that has a proper air-oil separator or baffle inside it. Don't just go on eBay, buy a shitty catch can for $30 and slap some steel wool in it. No, Go buy something like a Mishimoto one, something that's been properly designed and engineered to work.
     
  15. Calaber

    Calaber Nil Bastardo Carborundum

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    @rtmpgt. The differences between the FWD and RWD versions of the Alloytech are ibvious when you compare their installation in Commodores and Captivas. Mybson had a VZ and we had a Captiva, both 06 builds. There were so many variations to accommodate the FWD installation, it was difficult to believe they were the same basic engines.
     
  16. Callum433

    Callum433 New Member

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    Yeah I agree I was only meaning relative. Some kits now days for a hardware swap (mounting and such only) are way overpriced and can be built or dabbed by someone for cheaper.

    Twin direct injectors? That's a can of worms I'd rather not get into. After the ly7 they went direct injected and as you say later yes very very different intake intake runners. But I've been going over it lately and even thinking I could maybe get someone to weld up that injector whole in the head and probably on the outside too just for safety (maybe fill it?) Then drill and weld in seats and mounts for top or side feed Injectors. I agree vs's are very light but I'm still tossing up if I want to add the extra cost of the swap. I may even build it into my current daily 2004 sv6 manual.

    Yeah I know they breath better just thought as I said before I might be able to get rid of the direct Injectors and convert it to port so I get the ability to have way bigger injectors and 4 phase cams with all sorts of other goodies that come with the llt head.

    Yeah I am aware of hot they can get (especially if I want 2 step or antilag ;) ) i may just get somewhere to fab some ss ones up unless there is a better matieria to use making turbo manis? Yeah I agree twins is what I had in mind for it anyways. And yes the internals will be up to scratch. I found a place I can get big h beams and some cp 8.5:1 forgies for 2k. I've found a company that makes head studs for em and I wanna get a lfx or later forged crank just to be safe so I can turn up the boost. As for oil starvation it's tricky because I did want to try and go electric but can't find a suitable pump. There more than. Likely a way to mod the oil pressure spring just to bump it up and make it safer. So not quite sure witch way to go with that.

    Yeah that's what I meant by can't breath. One side has this ******* pissy little pcv and the other side gets nothing. Not the mention half the baffles are in the way of the breather galleries. I had heard they used to be fwd engines but there wasn't much info that I could find directly linking them.

    Yeah I was definitely gonna get a really good catch can and more than likely mod the covers to get the most breathability possible on both banks. What would you recommend for really good oil for these motors? Stock motors yeah 5k Max is when you wanna change the oil. Would it be different because my motor is modified? I may even look at trying to get an lf3 block witch actually has oil squirters I think.

    Would be very cool having a trip sleeper V6 vz manual but I guess it depends on the extra price of putting it into a different shell. If anyone has any ideas on transmission options that would be greatly appreciated too. I want to stay manual and I said earlier the 6 speed is alright but will self destruct tuening up the boost. Cheers guys
     

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