Senator won’t start :(

[Mattyboyy]

Hey all! I’ve just built my very first hsv, pretty exciting considering I’ve never done this before…
I had a vt calais as a donor car & pulled everything from it to bring the senator back to life, now when I try to turn the senator over… you guessed it, no start… it’ll beep 1 time to state I have bypassed the hsv ess system but it will crank twice & then cut power, every time I turn the key to fire it up it will do the same thing, 2 turns then cut out, I have used a pim from my donor however the bcm, ecu & keyhead are from the senator but from what I’ve been told if this was a linking issue it would not crank at all? At least one would thing… right? I have checked my earths as I re installed the harness when the motor was in the car & triple checked everything & can’t find anything to be loose

 

[RiffRaffMama]

Everything to do with the key must match. If you have the wrong key head for the other parts, the car will still turn over and it will often even start, but it will then stall immediately. Get both keyheads. Hit unlock on whichever keyhead is unlocking the car immediately before turning the ignition and hold them both in your right hand when you try starting the car. LMK how that goes.

To clarify - you can have a different ignition key to that which unlocks your car, but you have to have the unlocking key near the ignition when you start the car. For a while I had a problem with my ignition where it would lock up if you took the key out and you'd then spend 10 minutes trying to get it to turn when you put the key back in. So I put the ignition key in an empty key head (they're a bitch to try and turn without something on the end of them). All it does is turn the cylinders in the lock, just like on a door at your house. The magic is in the other keyhead. I used to leave the empty key in the ignition and take the keyless key head with me to lock and unlock the car. If I took too long before starting the car after getting in, it would forget the signal and would turn over, start and then immediately die. I would then have to hit unlock again to signal to the car that I had the correct key. The keyhead would then live in that little pocket under my stereo and my car would drive fine until I next got out.

I don't know if that made it clearer or worse. If this works for you though, swap the ignition cylinders over. It's literally a 5 minute job. The problem should go away then.

 

[Mattyboyy]

I believe the problem lies in the pim being from another car & is not linked to the car as I have the correct key in which is locking & unlocking & disabling the ess but will turn 2 times exactly, everytime, I don’t have a second key which is why I am trying to explore all options as to whether it is a faulty part or something to do with the computers being different, I will try the lock & unlock procedure & see if it want to actually start but at this moment I cannot get it past turning over, it will not start at all just a few cranks then nothing

 

[RiffRaffMama]

I believe the problem lies in the pim being from another car & is not linked to the car as I have the correct key in which is locking & unlocking & disabling the ess but will turn 2 times exactly, everytime, I don’t have a second key which is why I am trying to explore all options as to whether it is a faulty part or something to do with the computers being different, I will try the lock & unlock procedure & see if it want to actually start but at this moment I cannot get it past turning over, it will not start at all just a few cranks then nothing

I don't know if you saw it, but I added more to my response, explaining my experience. Sometimes the car would turn over, sometimes it would start, sometimes it would do neither, so that part of your problem still fits within the possibility.
If it is the pim like you think, then you're going to need the bits from both cars to fix it up. As I understand it, the pim needs to be reset before being removed from the donor car. It can be done afterwards but it's a bit of a f*ckaround. You'll need a Tech II. It will then link the BCM to the PCM/PIM.

 

[lout]

the hsv ess security system is quite complicated and is actually built into the looms

 

[BlackVXGTS]

The information below would indicate that the ESS is working correctly and is not part of your problem. Just to clarify, was the VT Calais donor car a VTII (V8)? What model was the Senator (VT, VTII, VX.....)?

HSV EMBEDDED SECURITY SYSTEM
The HSV Embedded Security System (ESS) is a micro-processor controlled immobiliser which automatically interrupts four essential electrical circuits when in armed mode, preventing the vehicle from starting. The ESS stores important security codes and every time the vehicle is started it reads these codes. If any of these codes are different from the stored codes the ESS emits five beeps, enters armed mode, and prevents the vehicle from starting. If the ESS receives the correct codes it emits a single beep and allows the vehicle to start.
Operation of the ESS requires no extra input from the owner above the normal procedure of starting the vehicle. When ignition is switched off the module automatically enters armed mode. Disarming the system is achieved simply by inserting a correct key into the ignition barrel and turning it to the on position. Confirmation of the disarm is provided by a single beep. Conversely, if the vehicle enters armed mode when the ignition is turned on five beeps are emitted.
The ESS has been designed so that in the event of power loss to the system (flat battery or theft attempt) it will return to the same operating state when power is restored. For example, if the system is operating in armed mode when the power is interrupted, it will return to the armed condition when power is restored.
To further enhance vehicular security the module is placed in a difficult to access location and is embedded into the vehicles main wiring harness. All wiring to the module is the same colour and of the same wire gauge.
A Security Information Card is supplied with the vehicle which contains the ESS PIN. This PIN is required by the authorised service agent in the event of either a Body Control Module (BCM) replacement or if new keys need to be programmed to the vehicle. The service agent contacts Australian Arrow Pty Ltd quoting this PIN. They then get the PIN converted to a particular security code which corresponds to a sequence of vehicular functions. By performing this sequence, which is different for every vehicle, the vehicle can be fitted with a new BCM or have new keys programmed to it. There are approximately 60,000 different codes available.
The HSV ESS is an electronic immobiliser which derives its main power feed from the car battery. However, the current consumption when the ignition is turned off is zero so there will be no adverse effects to your car battery.

 

[RiffRaffMama]

The information below would indicate that the ESS is working correctly and is not part of your problem. Just to clarify, was the VT Calais donor car a VTII (V8)? What model was the Senator (VT, VTII, VX.....)?

HSV EMBEDDED SECURITY SYSTEM
The HSV Embedded Security System (ESS) is a micro-processor controlled immobiliser which automatically interrupts four essential electrical circuits when in armed mode, preventing the vehicle from starting. The ESS stores important security codes and every time the vehicle is started it reads these codes. If any of these codes are different from the stored codes the ESS emits five beeps, enters armed mode, and prevents the vehicle from starting. If the ESS receives the correct codes it emits a single beep and allows the vehicle to start.
Operation of the ESS requires no extra input from the owner above the normal procedure of starting the vehicle. When ignition is switched off the module automatically enters armed mode. Disarming the system is achieved simply by inserting a correct key into the ignition barrel and turning it to the on position. Confirmation of the disarm is provided by a single beep. Conversely, if the vehicle enters armed mode when the ignition is turned on five beeps are emitted.
The ESS has been designed so that in the event of power loss to the system (flat battery or theft attempt) it will return to the same operating state when power is restored. For example, if the system is operating in armed mode when the power is interrupted, it will return to the armed condition when power is restored.
To further enhance vehicular security the module is placed in a difficult to access location and is embedded into the vehicles main wiring harness. All wiring to the module is the same colour and of the same wire gauge.
A Security Information Card is supplied with the vehicle which contains the ESS PIN. This PIN is required by the authorised service agent in the event of either a Body Control Module (BCM) replacement or if new keys need to be programmed to the vehicle. The service agent contacts Australian Arrow Pty Ltd quoting this PIN. They then get the PIN converted to a particular security code which corresponds to a sequence of vehicular functions. By performing this sequence, which is different for every vehicle, the vehicle can be fitted with a new BCM or have new keys programmed to it. There are approximately 60,000 different codes available.
The HSV ESS is an electronic immobiliser which derives its main power feed from the car battery. However, the current consumption when the ignition is turned off is zero so there will be no adverse effects to your car battery.

Click to expand...

Jesus Christ.
That's quite possibly the most over-engineered thing I've ever read.
I've read it five times now and I'm still confused - is this like the pit bull of immobilisers that only came out on upper-tier commodore models, or is it just the same system all commodores have, worded to sound far more impressive than it actually is?

 

[BlackVXGTS]

"The new HSV Embedded Security System (ESS) is fitted as standard equipment to all HSV VTII, WH, VY and WK model
Vehicles. The ESS is a microprocessor-controlled immobiliser, which automatically interrupts essential electrical circuits
when in “armed mode”. The ESS stores the BCM’s security code and when the car is started it reads this code from the
SCI bus. If this code is different from the stored one the ESS enters armed mode and prevents the vehicle from starting."

Also fitted to HSV VZ models according to the VT/VZ Workshop manual.

 

[Mattyboyy]

The information below would indicate that the ESS is working correctly and is not part of your problem. Just to clarify, was the VT Calais donor car a VTII (V8)? What model was the Senator (VT, VTII, VX.....)?

HSV EMBEDDED SECURITY SYSTEM
The HSV Embedded Security System (ESS) is a micro-processor controlled immobiliser which automatically interrupts four essential electrical circuits when in armed mode, preventing the vehicle from starting. The ESS stores important security codes and every time the vehicle is started it reads these codes. If any of these codes are different from the stored codes the ESS emits five beeps, enters armed mode, and prevents the vehicle from starting. If the ESS receives the correct codes it emits a single beep and allows the vehicle to start.
Operation of the ESS requires no extra input from the owner above the normal procedure of starting the vehicle. When ignition is switched off the module automatically enters armed mode. Disarming the system is achieved simply by inserting a correct key into the ignition barrel and turning it to the on position. Confirmation of the disarm is provided by a single beep. Conversely, if the vehicle enters armed mode when the ignition is turned on five beeps are emitted.
The ESS has been designed so that in the event of power loss to the system (flat battery or theft attempt) it will return to the same operating state when power is restored. For example, if the system is operating in armed mode when the power is interrupted, it will return to the armed condition when power is restored.
To further enhance vehicular security the module is placed in a difficult to access location and is embedded into the vehicles main wiring harness. All wiring to the module is the same colour and of the same wire gauge.
A Security Information Card is supplied with the vehicle which contains the ESS PIN. This PIN is required by the authorised service agent in the event of either a Body Control Module (BCM) replacement or if new keys need to be programmed to the vehicle. The service agent contacts Australian Arrow Pty Ltd quoting this PIN. They then get the PIN converted to a particular security code which corresponds to a sequence of vehicular functions. By performing this sequence, which is different for every vehicle, the vehicle can be fitted with a new BCM or have new keys programmed to it. There are approximately 60,000 different codes available.
The HSV ESS is an electronic immobiliser which derives its main power feed from the car battery. However, the current consumption when the ignition is turned off is zero so there will be no adverse effects to your car battery.

Both were ls1 vehicles yes however the pim seems to be what’s causing me the issue not being paired with the others so I will be sending those away to get buddied up & hopefully away we go

 

[Mattyboyy]

Both were ls1 vehicles yes however the pim seems to be what’s causing me the issue not being paired with the others so I will be sending those away to get buddied up & hopefully away we go

The senator is a vx 02 & the calais 00