Toyota shoots itself in the tackle

[Skylarking]

The flip side is that the battery pack is a significant proportion of the cost of an EV, so buying a car sans battery and leasing the battery reduces the upfront costs. It also alleviates the capital degradation due the an ageing/deteriorating battery as the battery can just be swapped for a fresh one.

I understand lower up front costs but these don't occur in a vaccum. The leasing business considers all factors related to battery handling, battery degredation and such other factors that are relevant to their business (including loan costs). All so these things are factored into the equation to give them the return they desire and we the "savers" pay the premium...

Frankly, i doubt people would lease private vehicles today if there wasn't any posibility to novate them and pay with pre tax dollars. I see such schemes as a tax burden which scews the market and promotes new vehicle churn to the detriment of tax $ and the environment. In some ways i'm happy BP went under...

Likely BetterPlace failed not only due to poor management and a too high rate of expansion but the big factor that car makers want a piece of the pie. Car makers probably didnt want to play ball with BP and standardise around a globally swappable battery.. And who wants different batteries like we see in power tools... It would have been like building pertol stations for 98, others for LPG and Ethanol which is how this whole battery swap thing would have ended up... Buy into the wrong ecosystem and your product is orphaned too quickly...

 

[Immortality]

At the end of the day, what ever happens, it won't be in the best interests of consumers. Only the interest of the business's and it's share owners dividends and profits is what matters.

 

[VT II Executive]

Electric cars are inevitable. However there’s no infrastructure to handle them. None. Novelty charge points. It will be expensive to charge. It has to be. Why? Well there’s no way the consumer will get energy for nothing.

Now, many car parks have token charge points. What’s it like when everyone has an electric car? Well we either fight for the token charge point or the reality is that car parks will be converted to electric networks. Rebuild every car park so the land owner can charge for you to park and consume their energy. There’s the clincher.

I dread to think of the resources required to convert and rebuild carparks across the country. Then if the shitty shopping centre can’t afford it, a bigger company comes in and rebuilds and converts the whole carpark for them and the shopping centre is seemingly forever in debt to that company for the work.

Fk. Our country can’t even supply electricity to east coast grid. It’s all lots of companies fighting over their energy source dominance and not a free flowing, well managed, integrated network. Australians are kidding themselves. (Note WA kept its state owned power grid and has no supply issues even with incorporating solar, wind, coal and gas to supply electricity)

Throw in the bullshit stunt BMW recently pulled with subscription features. Imagine how gripped by the goolies we are going to be “owning”these cars. All the data about us and how we use them will be sold to who ever wants it.

I usually say if something is free, we are the actual product being sold (shopping rewards etc) but more and more we are paying for something and selling our selves at the same time.

If only we were in control of that info and how it is sold. Not someone else.

Overall the shift is not about environment, but increasing corporate profit and creating a product to sell out of thin air.

We should absolutely look to having more environmentally sensitive transport. Absolutely. Don’t view this as we shouldn’t change our lives because we are not the problem or represent a certain percentage. Every change has to start somewhere. The cars we drive are not going to be a silver bullet. It’s about silver buckshot. Lots of little things make a bigger change.

What does not sit comfortably with me is that we increase energy use in order to decrease energy use. WTF.
Let’s keep our older cars on the road. Let’s keep our clothing longer. Let’s upcycle where possible.

That’s a bit ranty. Sorry

Electric cars are inevitable. However there’s no infrastructure to handle them. None. Novelty charge points. It will be expensive to charge. It has to be. Why? Well there’s no way the consumer will get energy for nothing.

Now, many car parks have token charge points. What’s it like when everyone has an electric car? Well we either fight for the token charge point or the reality is that car parks will be converted to electric networks. Rebuild every car park so the land owner can charge for you to park and consume their energy. There’s the clincher.

I dread to think of the resources required to convert and rebuild carparks across the country. Then if the shitty shopping centre can’t afford it, a bigger company comes in and rebuilds and converts the whole carpark for them and the shopping centre is seemingly forever in debt to that company for the work.

Fk. Our country can’t even supply electricity to east coast grid. It’s all lots of companies fighting over their energy source dominance and not a free flowing, well managed, integrated network. Australians are kidding themselves. (Note WA kept its state owned power grid and has no supply issues even with incorporating solar, wind, coal and gas to supply electricity)

Throw in the bullshit stunt BMW recently pulled with subscription features. Imagine how gripped by the goolies we are going to be “owning”these cars. All the data about us and how we use them will be sold to who ever wants it.

I usually say if something is free, we are the actual product being sold (shopping rewards etc) but more and more we are paying for something and selling our selves at the same time.

If only we were in control of that info and how it is sold. Not someone else.

Overall the shift is not about environment, but increasing corporate profit and creating a product to sell out of thin air.

We should absolutely look to having more environmentally sensitive transport. Absolutely. Don’t view this as we shouldn’t change our lives because we are not the problem or represent a certain percentage. Every change has to start somewhere. The cars we drive are not going to be a silver bullet. It’s about silver buckshot. Lots of little things make a bigger change.

What does not sit comfortably with me is that we increase energy use in order to decrease energy use. WTF.
Let’s keep our older cars on the road. Let’s keep our clothing longer. Let’s upcycle where possible.

That’s a bit ranty. Sorry.

This is why I would rather have LPG cars than E-cars, only a couple grand to spend on a car you like and boom, less emissions and a fuel Australia has.

also people calculate the running emissions of E-cars not how long they
last (which is only about 8 years) and how much they tear up the environment when being made.


I totally agree with you that it’s for money because why else would they release this when it’s built up a lot of hype and not 10 years ago?

E-cars are just boring in general, put my foot down and I get pushed into my seat a little then I going the speed limit. We also won’t be able to upgrade the cars or anything without killing ourselves (not that there is much to upgrade on E-cars anyway).

this was also a bit of a rant, just some thoughts trapped in my mind I needed to get out.

 

[Fu Manchu]

There’s alternatives like E85, biodiesel or Hydrogen. I think all of us wouldn’t care what the car runs on, it just has to be readily available and compatible with what is by and far the huge majority of vehicles on the road.

I don’t think Australia, can completely convert its entire vehicle inventory at a time when living costs are crippling Aussies to afford one.
The haves and have nots. Rich get electric transport. The now even poorer forced out of personal transport and into more dangerous, under resourced and under planned public transport.

 

[J_D 2.0]

There’s alternatives like E85, biodiesel or Hydrogen. I think all of us wouldn’t care what the car runs on, it just has to be readily available and compatible with what is by and far the huge majority of vehicles on the road.

I don’t think Australia, can completely convert its entire vehicle inventory at a time when living costs are crippling Aussies to afford one.
The haves and have nots. Rich get electric transport. The now even poorer forced out of personal transport and into more dangerous, under resourced and under planned public transport.

The “EV revolution“ is only going to exacerbate the divide between the rich and poor. Poor people don’t buy new cars and most are stuck buying cars that are 10-20 years old.

That means most of them won’t be able to have an EV for a decade or more after they become ubiquitous. No doubt as the portion of cars running on fossil fuels decreases the fuel cost will continue to go up either through increased taxes or fossil fuel companies wanting more profit margin from less volume to maintain their overall net profit.

That means the affluent people can look forward to lower transport costs from an EV (more efficient, solar charging for free, etc) and the poor can cop increasing transport costs that prevent them from ever being able to save enough money to afford an EV.

 

[Immortality]

This is the way!

The capitalist way, must keep those poor down, make them work longer hours, more jobs just to scratch by.

 

[vc commodore]

I can just hear the call to a local break down service with electric vehicles.....

I have broken down at such such a road

What's the problem sir.

Flat battery....

Sorry, will have to send a tech out to check

The tech then orders a tow truck to take it to the local dealership, where you'll be billed for 6 hours work, charging the battery, just so you can drive it again.

 

[J_D 2.0]

I can just hear the call to a local break down service with electric vehicles.....

I have broken down at such such a road

What's the problem sir.

Flat battery....

Sorry, will have to send a tech out to check

The tech then orders a tow truck to take it to the local dealership, where you'll be billed for 6 hours work, charging the battery, just so you can drive it again.

All the people that call out roadside assist because they ran out of fuel are screwed!

 

[vc commodore]

All the people that call out roadside assist because they ran out of fuel are screwed!

Especially if the road side mechanic can't find the fuel flap to fill it up....

 

[Skylarking]

A Tesla3 uses 135W/km according to the sticker on the windscreen. So assuming one does 500km/week and the juice costs $0.30/Kwh (of dirty power) that should translate to $20.25.

However one must add EV tax which in some states is $0.025/km or another $12.50/week. Maintenance I’ve got no real idea but brakes wouldn’t be used much due to regenerative braking so tyres would probably be the biggest periodic expense. Maybe $1k every three years for tyres so $6.50/week?

And the battery won’t last forever so assume it costs $20k to replace some 10 years down the road, that equates to $38/week. So that cheap car to run, the one that costs $70k+ to buy, will also set you back $20.25+$12.50+6.50+$38 = $77.25/week so let’s round it down to $70 to be generous to the newcomer while assuming you do 500km in a week and my battery estimation isn’t completely out of the ball park. No idea what a Tesla3 would be worth after 10 years so let’s ignore that…

Interestingly my shitbox daily cost <$30k new and uses 50ltrs of 91RON to get 500km down the road. It’s not a particularly low fuel use ehicle as it’s already 10 years old. So with todays fuel cost @$2.50/l, at its worst, it sucks $125/week from my pocket. Maintenance is probably an average of $400/year or $7.60/week but let’s round up to $10/week. But buying the cheaper guzzler over the Tesla3 saves $40k which works out to a saving of $76.90/week. So factor these numbers into the mix and the gas’s guzzler costs me $125+$10-$76.90 = $58.10 which we can round to $60/week… The **** box guzzler with be worth bugger all after 10 years but let’s also ignore that.

So we have the Tesla3 costing $70/week while the old school shitbox costs $60/week… Obviously a gas’s guzzler v8 would change tne numbers and make the Tesla3 look better but most drive uninspiring shitboxes…

Yes one can spend more money to install rooftop solar and home battery systems so one can charge their car “for free” but that’d cost $$ and needs upgrading after 10 or so years due to degraded performance so free it’s not … so I’ll ignore that for the time being.

End result is Fcuk being green, I’ll stay with my poor man gas’s guzzler for the moment and side step at the issue of litium mining, battery recycling and such… After all fully utilising the energy used to make the vehile in the first place by keeping it in use for the longest possible time is the best environmental choice regardless what the greenies say…

And poor people, rich people… makes no difference when petrol still stacks up as a better cost option. it’s just that rich people want to be cool being driven by the self drive POS status symbol on wheels while paying a price for the privilege… All the strength to them…