Toyota shoots itself in the tackle

[Skylarking]

What if you could use the car battery as part of your home battery supply.

If you don’t use the car much or short trips, you have excess power stored, when plugged in, it can be drawn from if needed.

Vehicle makers have already allowed some of their models to provide power to non vehicle devices. Think of a 4x4 that can power your camping site… I believe some can also power your home… but why?

The problem is EV batteries currently like being at particular charge level else their life can be shortened if not kept at optimum charge. In that context, ideally a vehicle battery should be sized for its expected usage and kept optimally charged for longevity issues.

As such it gets much more complicated to plan for expected vehicle kms and home supply provisioning and size the battery appropriately. Such shared tasks also means the vehicle is carrying a much bigger battery that it needs for road use only (and that means inefficiencies around the extra weight).

Maybe such use cases could be more appropriate when solid state batteries come into being but who knows when that would occur as huge investment by car makers is occuring in the LI-ion space… and they’d want a return so they’d hold off on new tech…

Me, I just want a dumb arse EV that is small and light and doesn’t have all these wiz bang self drive features or high end entertainment systems and optimised for vehicle use only… Me, i only need max 100km range between charge per week, in most cases, most weeks. For those other longer trips, a supplementary battery that can be taken out of the home battery wall and dropped into the boot which would be ideal, else I take my Dino juice vehicle…

But we can’t get tool manufacturers to standardise on battery mechanical specs so every brand is different (these days industry would never standardise on something like AAA, AA or D cells)… So no commonality anywhere.

Really I just want a simple EV drivers car to get me from A-B with a little engagement, after all it’s a car ffs, it’s not a lounge room… Some commonality in battery systems would also be helpful… But nah, such commonalities will never happen as it’s always “proprietary”.

 

[Immortality]

In an ideal world cars with removable cells so you can tailor your car for the distances you drive and have a house battery system that uses the same cells so you can tailor home and car capacity to suit your needs and swap out as required.

Kinda like how the EU is forcing all electronics suppliers to use the same charger and plug regardless of brand or device type.



.... sometimes govco regulation is a good thing!

 

[chrisp]

BetterPlace tried to launch a swappable battery and had a few car markers lined up to manufacture compatible vehicles. The idea was to be a bit like swap-and-go gas bottles with an automated battery swapping machine that looked a bit like a car wash. BetterPlace went under a while back. I suspect that they were ahead of their time, and probably the idea was too sensible for reality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)

 

[Skylarking]

BetterPlace tried to launch a swappable battery and had a few car markers lined up to manufacture compatible vehicles. The idea was to be a bit like swap-and-go gas bottles with an automated battery swapping machine that looked a bit like a car wash. BetterPlace went under a while back. I suspect that they were ahead of their time, and probably the idea was too sensible for reality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)

BetterPlace was planning a battery leasing model IIRC so no thanks…

I’d prefer to see common standards for battery & battery management system mechanicals so that things can be more readily swapped and/or upgraded as new tech arrives… for the car and at home… but the world can’t even standardise on the EV charger port… Sad.

PS: looking at your analogy, I always preferred filling my own gas bottle as it was much cheaper than these swap and go schemes. So why replicate the same with batteries when it mrans increases the cost to owners of EVs. Standardisation is the way forward, not leasing schemes.

 

[J_D 2.0]

As such it gets much more complicated to plan for expected vehicle kms and home supply provisioning and size the battery appropriately. Such shared tasks also means the vehicle is carrying a much bigger battery that it needs for road use only (and that means inefficiencies around the extra weight).

Most EV batteries are oversized already for most peoples requirements on 90% of occasions. Most people would only drive 50kms each way tops to and from work so most EVs would still have two thirds to three quarters of their charge left when they get home of an evening, and that’s assuming it wasn’t topped up by charging at work.

It’s entirely doable to run your house off your EV battery for the vast majority of people. Myself I only drive 25kms each way to work so I could run the car for a whole week and still have about a third of the charge left in it and only charge it on the weekends with free solar power.

Im thinking of doing this down the track when EVs get cheaper. Have 5kw of solar on the roof and charge the car on the weekends. Effectively zero fuel cost to get to and from work.

 

[Skylarking]

Most EV batteries are oversized already for most peoples requirements on 90% of occasions. Most people would only drive 50kms each way tops to and from work so most EVs would still have two thirds to three quarters of their charge left when they get home of an evening, and that’s assuming it wasn’t topped up by charging at work.

It’s entirely doable to run your house off your EV battery for the vast majority of people. Myself I only drive 25kms each way to work so I could run the car for a whole week and still have about a third of the charge left in it and only charge it on the weekends with free solar power.

Im thinking of doing this down the track when EVs get cheaper. Have 5kw of solar on the roof and charge the car on the weekends. Effectively zero fuel cost to get to and from work.

IIRC, the reason EV batteries are over-provisioned purposefully is because it has to do with battery life.

If the battery was dimensioned for the 50kms one does per day and the battery was cycles from full to empty to full every day, then the battery may likely last just a year and not the 10 years they warrant it for. As is, battery life is measured by full recharge cycles and most EV’s won’t be fully charging every day… For manufacturers warranty is a statistical game.

So we pay the penalty in weight because battery tech isn’t quite there yet… Maybe things will be better with solid state batteries, maybe the generation after that... but I expect such tech will be delayed as companies are building lots of Li-ion mines, battery plants and such and they won’t be made obsolete until they have returned sufficient profit to their investors…

 

[Lex]

I can’t really see employers jumping at the prospect of setting that kind of thing up.

I can see them doing that (charging you (money), for charging your car at work). At a good profit too.

 

[chrisp]

BetterPlace was planning a battery leasing model IIRC so no thanks…

I’d prefer to see common standards for battery & battery management system mechanicals so that things can be more readily swapped and/or upgraded as new tech arrives… for the car and at home… but the world can’t even standardise on the EV charger port… Sad.

PS: looking at your analogy, I always preferred filling my own gas bottle as it was much cheaper than these swap and go schemes. So why replicate the same with batteries when it mrans increases the cost to owners of EVs. Standardisation is the way forward, not leasing schemes.

The flip side is that the battery pack is a significant proportion of the cost of an EV, so buying a car sans battery and leasing the battery reduces the upfront costs. It also alleviates the capital degradation due the an ageing/deteriorating battery as the battery can just be swapped for a fresh one.

 

[J_D 2.0]

IIRC, the reason EV batteries are over-provisioned purposefully is because it has to do with battery life.

If the battery was dimensioned for the 50kms one does per day and the battery was cycles from full to empty to full every day, then the battery may likely last just a year and not the 10 years they warrant it for. As is, battery life is measured by full recharge cycles and most EV’s won’t be fully charging every day… For manufacturers warranty is a statistical game.

So we pay the penalty in weight because battery tech isn’t quite there yet… Maybe things will be better with solid state batteries, maybe the generation after that... but I expect such tech will be delayed as companies are building lots of Li-ion mines, battery plants and such and they won’t be made obsolete until they have returned sufficient profit to their investors…

The battery life provision is already built into the capacity of the battery that you cant use, because software stops you from doing so, so the life provision is on top of the usable capacity.

When you think your lithium battery powered drill is flat it’s not actually flat. Theres a provision left in the battery that your not allowed to use to keep it in good working order.

 

[J_D 2.0]

BetterPlace was planning a battery leasing model IIRC so no thanks…

I’d prefer to see common standards for battery & battery management system mechanicals so that things can be more readily swapped and/or upgraded as new tech arrives… for the car and at home… but the world can’t even standardise on the EV charger port… Sad.

PS: looking at your analogy, I always preferred filling my own gas bottle as it was much cheaper than these swap and go schemes. So why replicate the same with batteries when it mrans increases the cost to owners of EVs. Standardisation is the way forward, not leasing schemes.

And this is why capitalism sucks. The most logical thing doesn’t get done (standardised replacement batteries) because each manufacturer wants to lock you into their ecosystem to gouge extra profits out of you.