VE WM stabilitrak ESP cornering issue

[smidey]

Hey team
07 WM Caprice 6.0L
I'm on a mission to solve a ESP stabilitrak issue that has been a problem for me for a few years.
The issue is it thinks the car is in a slide in the corners when it isn't and takes over, braking etc.
This has only started when I fitted redline 19" wheels, I fitted them because I fitted brembo brakes to my car.
Factory Redline wheels, 19x8.5 245/40/19 dunlop sp sport maxx front & 19x9 275/35/19 RE003 rear.
When i first fitted the redline wheels, there was no issue. They had half worn yokohama tyres. The issue began when I had two new tyres fitted to the rear. They were 275/35/19 (mid range brand, can't remember exactly which one) as recommended and what came off, every corner was an issue. They were taken off and a different brand fitted, Neuton 512. They were much much less of an issue initially but ESP still activated fairly regularly on RH bends. Once some wearing occurred, the ESP would only activate on one particular corner on my road home. It's a RH bend with a bumpy surface mid corner. I regularly tested it with ESP off and could go much faster than regular traffic speed through that bend with out issue. ESP would regularly activate there at regular traffic speed. Another corner on my road home has had some pot holes develop and it now activates there as well. I could live with it like that so haven't done anything about it, I have replaced the wheel speed sensor and had it out to make sure it was clean since fitting but no improvement was achieved. It's always the LH front wheel braking when ESP activates.

Yesterday I had a pair of 275/35/19 RE003 fitted to the rear, it has reverted back to ESP activating regularly.

Has anyone had this issue and solved it?

I have seen other similar issues in other threads but they don't seem to have been resolved.
Monroe GT sport shocks, king springs, whiteline front & rear sway bars, bushes & links, whiteline rear subframe bushes.

 

[Skylarking]

Modern vehicles needs to be aware of tire sizes installed so in the case of the VF there are different calibration files for the speed calibration module software within the ECM which depends on the tire size fitted.

Using the old Tis2Web website, you could see the RPO code and associated tire size when choosing which calibration to use. The factory tire sizes listed for 19" rims for the VF SS, Calais and Motorsport Edition calibrations are QI8=245/40R19 & RJ8=245/40R19 (FRONT) and 275/35R19 (REAR).

Presumably the outside running diameter would impact speed calculations preformed by the ECM and passed on to the BCM and then onto the cluster, hence the need for calibration files. So as long as the tires are within the designed margins, all should be OK but how wide those margins are is anyone's guess.

Interestingly in days gone by, tire manufacturers used to spec the number of loaded wheel rotations per km which the tire would make so it was easy to compare what % difference one brand of the same size tyre would have compared to another brand compared to factory (and thus know how much your speedo would be out). Such specs aren't listed these days which is ironic given that such info is even more critical these days than days gone by.

Being that VE/VF are similar, sort of, such issues are probably an issue for VE. As a sanity check, I'd be ringing the tire manufacturer and requesting such rotations/km info for the tires you've bought and for the factory tires. Then you can compare and ask the dealer whether such a difference would impact the ABS/ESC. Personally I don't think the car should be that sensitive to small changes in loaded wheel radius but who knows other than the manufacturer or the dealer servicing experts (that the dealers are supposed to be)

Then if that all seems OK, the hard bit is that there are a lot of sensors involved in ABS/ESC/etc, not just wheel speed sensors. For example, in the VF we have Brake pedal position sensor, yaw rate, lateral acceleration and longitudinal acceleration sensors, steering angle sensor, gear position sensors and wheel speed sensors. And lets not forget the ESC buttons which can change system behaviour. Any number of these sensors can be marginally out of limit and presumably cause issues with ABS/ESC/etc (and the button can turn it off to some degree). Some of these sensors belong to other systems and the required data is calculated and transferred around the vehicle using high speed CAN bus (so there may be more calibration issues).

As such all sensors need to be correctly checked and considered in your case. Whether the vehicle produces DTC's in relation to inadvertent ESC activation is anyone's guess but I'd thing not (though there may be some data logging function somewhere within the system for compliance reasons).

The difficulty is finding someone who has the equipment and skill to correctly fault find these systems (rather than just throwing parts at it).

Can't be any more helpful but it may be worth while downloading the factory VE workshop manual PDF which has a link to a download floating around the forum somewhere.

Good luck with it.

 

[lmoengnr]

VE Redline wheels were 19"x8.5" front and rear, VF1 came staggered, 8.5" and 9.0".
Try a pair of 245/40 tires on the rear. You might be getting a 'wheel speed mismatch' when cornering.

 

[Skylarking]

VE Redline wheels were 19"x8.5" front and rear, VF1 came staggered, 8.5" and 9.0".
Try a pair of 245/40 tires on the rear. You might be getting a 'wheel speed mismatch' when cornering.

From the following listed website, 275/35R19 has 472 revolutions/km while the factory 245/40R19 has 469 revs/km, that's just a 0.64% increase

Tire Size Calculator – Compare Tire Dimensions/diameter/circumference/revolutions per mile

Tire Size Calculator compares tire dimensions, diameter, circumference, revolutions per mile/km from the tire size designation.

www.tyresizecalculator.com

Mind you, presumably that's calculated and not a looked up from the manufacturer's testing data but that difference seems well within what should be the built in margins for one tire being at a lower pressure than the other (and thus before the TPMS would kick a fuss)...

I'd also guess width doesn't change wheel speed calculations in any way so i can't see that as being a staggered wheel issue.

If this staggered tire wheel difference is ultimately found to be the cause, i guess we've got an idea how sensitive the VE ABS/ESC calibration actially is

 

[lmoengnr]

From the following listed website, 275/35R19 has 472 revolutions/km while the factory 245/40R19 has 469 revs/km, that's just a 0.64% increase

http://[URL][URL]https://www.tyresi.../tire-size-calculator-compare-tire-dimensions

[/URL][/URL]

Mind you, presumably that's calculated and not a looked up from the manufacturer's testing data but that difference seems well within what should be the built in margins for one tire being at a lower pressure than the other (and thus before the TPMS would kick a fuss)...

I'd also guess width doesn't change wheel speed calculations in any way so i can't see that as being a staggered wheel issue.

If this staggered tire wheel difference is ultimately found to be the cause, i guess we've got an idea how sensitive the VE ABS/ESC calibration actially is

Try the calculation with a 275 tire fitted to an 8.5" wheel? I don't think that is an ideal fitment.
Might cause the tire to bulge the center of the tread and create a larger circumference.

 

[Skylarking]

Try the calculation with a 275 tire fitted to an 8.5" wheel? I don't think that is an ideal fitment.

The website doesn't allow a rim specs to be specified with the tire spec so i guess it presumes the recommended rim size would be used.

But I can't see that a narrower rim would change (increase) the revolutions/km further. I'd guess the tire sidewall would balloon more and the tire would loose a few revs/km bringing it closer to the factory 245/40R19?

 

[lmoengnr]

The website doesn't allow a rim specs to be specified with the tire spec so i guess it presumes the recommended rim size would be used.

But I can't see that a narrower rim would change (increase) the revolutions/km further. I'd guess the tire sidewall would balloon more and the tire would loose a few revs/km bringing it closer to the factory 245/40R19?

Pretty sure minimum rim width for a 275 tire is 9" which is what Holden use.
HSV's use 9.5" rims.

Might be nothing to do with tires, possibly be a dodgy yaw sensor?
A Tech 2 or similar would be required to interrogate the BCM.

 

[Skylarking]

Pretty sure minimum rim width for a 275 tire is 9" which is what Holden use.
HSV's use 9.5" rims.

Might be nothing to do with tires, possibly be a dodgy yaw sensor?
A Tech 2 or similar would be required to interrogate the BCM.

At the small %age differences in rotation per km, I doubt its a tire issue which is why i suggested finding someone who's a good diagnostician to fault find.

I thought the yaw rate, lateral acceleration and longitudinal acceleration sensors were wired to the SRS module and sent as data to the ABS module combined but have vague recollection the BCM acts as a gateway for transmitting a lot of stuff around the car but I'm not at all sure. Sometimes the way the functions are demarcated is odd. Which module would need to be interogated, I.m uncertain. Where such data is logged I'm uncertian.

 

[vc commodore]

Modern vehicles needs to be aware of tire sizes installed so in the case of the VF there are different calibration files for the speed calibration module software within the ECM which depends on the tire size fitted.

Using the old Tis2Web website, you could see the RPO code and associated tire size when choosing which calibration to use. The factory tire sizes listed for 19" rims for the VF SS, Calais and Motorsport Edition calibrations are QI8=245/40R19 & RJ8=245/40R19 (FRONT) and 275/35R19 (REAR).

Presumably the outside running diameter would impact speed calculations preformed by the ECM and passed on to the BCM and then onto the cluster, hence the need for calibration files. So as long as the tires are within the designed margins, all should be OK but how wide those margins are is anyone's guess.

Interestingly in days gone by, tire manufacturers used to spec the number of loaded wheel rotations per km which the tire would make so it was easy to compare what % difference one brand of the same size tyre would have compared to another brand compared to factory (and thus know how much your speedo would be out). Such specs aren't listed these days which is ironic given that such info is even more critical these days than days gone by.

Being that VE/VF are similar, sort of, such issues are probably an issue for VE. As a sanity check, I'd be ringing the tire manufacturer and requesting such rotations/km info for the tires you've bought and for the factory tires. Then you can compare and ask the dealer whether such a difference would impact the ABS/ESC. Personally I don't think the car should be that sensitive to small changes in loaded wheel radius but who knows other than the manufacturer or the dealer servicing experts (that the dealers are supposed to be)

Then if that all seems OK, the hard bit is that there are a lot of sensors involved in ABS/ESC/etc, not just wheel speed sensors. For example, in the VF we have Brake pedal position sensor, yaw rate, lateral acceleration and longitudinal acceleration sensors, steering angle sensor, gear position sensors and wheel speed sensors. And lets not forget the ESC buttons which can change system behaviour. Any number of these sensors can be marginally out of limit and presumably cause issues with ABS/ESC/etc (and the button can turn it off to some degree). Some of these sensors belong to other systems and the required data is calculated and transferred around the vehicle using high speed CAN bus (so there may be more calibration issues).

As such all sensors need to be correctly checked and considered in your case. Whether the vehicle produces DTC's in relation to inadvertent ESC activation is anyone's guess but I'd thing not (though there may be some data logging function somewhere within the system for compliance reasons).

The difficulty is finding someone who has the equipment and skill to correctly fault find these systems (rather than just throwing parts at it).

Can't be any more helpful but it may be worth while downloading the factory VE workshop manual PDF which has a link to a download floating around the forum somewhere.

Good luck with it.

So the OP has fitted the correct sizes for a factory fitted staggered rim fitament, so can't see it being the problem....VE HSV's had this arrangement...

I'll also add in I can't say I have read about anyone else having this sort of issue when they have changed to a staggered arrangement...Be it the 19" staggered arrangement as per the OP or 20" staggered arrangement which is fairly common on this forum

 

[lmoengnr]

So the OP has fitted the correct sizes for a factory fitted staggered rim fitament, so can't see it being the problem....VE HSV's had this arrangement...

I'll also add in I can't say I have read about anyone else having this sort of issue when they have changed to a staggered arrangement...Be it the 19" staggered arrangement as per the OP or 20" staggered arrangement which is fairly common on this forum

What is your opinion on fitting a 275 sized tire on an 8.5" wheel?
Point I'm trying to make is the polished alloy Redline wheel (as per the OP's profile pic) was only available in 19"x8.5".
Fitted to VE2's and early VF1's. The later VF staggered versions had a black finish (prior to VF2).