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VE WM stabilitrak ESP cornering issue

vc commodore

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What is your opinion on fitting a 275 sized tire on an 8.5" wheel?
Point I'm trying to make is the polished alloy Redline wheel (as per the OP's profile pic) was only available in 19"x8.5".
Fitted to VE2's and early VF1's. The later VF staggered versions had a black finish (prior to VF2).

What's my opinion on fitting a factory sized tyre on a factory sized rim? Can't see it causing the problem the OP is having.....

I know this thread is speaking about a VE/WM issue but at least one member has gone a wider rear rim/tyre combo on the rear of their VF and I think one has gone a wider tyre on the rear of their VF...Curious if they struck a similar problem as the OP....Might eliminate the cause
 

vc commodore

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Thought I'd post up a picture of a VE HSV tyre placard for tyre size comparisons so a judgement an be made as to this being the cause of the problem
 

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So the OP has fitted the correct sizes for a factory fitted staggered rim fitament, so can't see it being the problem....VE HSV's had this arrangement...

I'll also add in I can't say I have read about anyone else having this sort of issue when they have changed to a staggered arrangement...Be it the 19" staggered arrangement as per the OP or 20" staggered arrangement which is fairly common on this forum
Yeah I can’t see it as being an issue either but none of us really know the limits that the ESC system accepts in terms of fitted wheel sizes before off things go of kilter which is why I me toned the issue of module calibration files (interestingly there are no such tire size related files for ABS/ESC so such may not have be exposed with tis2web).

As I said,
Personally I don't think the car should be that sensitive to small changes in loaded wheel radius but who knows other than the manufacturer or the dealer servicing experts (that the dealers are supposed to be) :rolleyes:
and
At the small %age differences in rotation per km, I doubt it’s a tire issue which is why i suggested finding someone who's a good diagnostician to fault find.

As is, the ESC control system must be able to cater for different tire stickiness (cheap quality rubber isn’t as grippy as performance rubber, skinny tires aren't as grippy as fat tires), road surfaces adhesion variability (different bitumens have different grip levels as does dirt roads), tire inflation pressures differences (as one low pressure tire impacts diameter*) and such daily variabilities without ESC going spastic and applying the brakes at times that don’t require ESC intervention.

Having said that, if one has ESC issues after changing to staggered tires, the logical step is to change back to the factory setup (non staggered) where the problem didn’t manifest. Doing such will help to confirm whether the issue is or isn’t tire related. If the problem does away after changing tires back to those fitted to the car previously, then it must have been some tire related calibration issue. If the problem still exists after changing tires back, it may just be an unfortunately timed failure that coincided with the tire size change. It’s just the first step along the road to finding a solution.

As a side, Holden‘s “Subject Matter Experts” told me in no uncertain terms that changing from staggered wheels to 8.5” all around can’t be endorsed due to ABS/ESC issues (which I thought was a bullshite cop out if I’ve ever heard one because ABS/ESC is a reactive and not predictive control system should cope with a large variety of conditions including low pressure in a tire). If such is true, then the inverse is can also be an issue. Reality is that if a vehicle’s ABS/ESC design is so restrictive around rim/tire size and tire pressure, then we have far bigger problems :rolleyes:

* In fact some tire pressure warning systems use ABS wheel speed to determine one wheel is too low in pressure rather then pressure sensors installed within the wheel).
 

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View attachment 257812

Thought I'd post up a picture of a VE HSV tyre placard for tyre size comparisons so a judgement an be made as to this being the cause of the problem
Tire placard says nothing about the ABS/ESC firmware and any other module’s calibration file.

(The tire placard specifies which tyres the manufacture has certified for use on that vehicle variant and padt of that considers the ABS/ESC firmware and any other module’s calibration file loaded in that vehicle. In essence its a bureaucratic issue and it means you can’t simply change the placard as desired.

And if you want to buy a tire placard from a dealer for your car, they’d want the VIN so they can get the correct placard for your specific vehicle (though I’m sure some dealers simply don’t care about the regs and will sell you what you want).

Obviously you can change the wheel size based on the modification rules in force within your state and this is where confusion comes in as the rules are inconsistent regrading vehicle variant.

What’s fitted to the vehicle variant is what’s certified and if your mods go too far you’d need engineering certification.

But on this I’m sure our views differ :p and no need to open that can of worms again :rolleyes:)

Hope OP sorts it out and let’s us know what the root cause of the problem was :cool:
 

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View attachment 257812

Thought I'd post up a picture of a VE HSV tyre placard for tyre size comparisons so a judgement an be made as to this being the cause of the problem
I have the same tire placard on my Maloo, but HSV fits 275 tires on 9.5" rims.
I did ask about fitting 275 tires to an 8.5" wheel, which seems oversize for that sized rim. The polished alloy second gen. Redline wheels were only available in 8.5".
Is it legal for a tire shop to fit a 275 tire on an 8.5" wheel?
 

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Is it legal for a tire shop to fit a 275 tire on an 8.5" wheel?
No idea what the tire manufacturer’s recommended rim size would be but I’m sure it’s specified by them.

So, if a tire shop works outside the manufacturers recommendations, they are taking the legal responsibility and liability should something go pair shaped (since there is no one else with deeper pockets to blame) :rolleyes:

Likewise I’ve got no recollection of what the road rego authorities would consider legal but I’d expect they’d err on the side of the manufacturer’s specs.
 

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No idea what the tire manufacturer’s recommended rim size would be but I’m sure it’s specified by them.

So, if a tire shop works outside the manufacturers recommendations, they are taking the legal responsibility and liability should something go pair shaped (since there is no one else with deeper pockets to blame) :rolleyes:

Likewise I’ve got no recollection of what the road rego authorities would consider legal but I’d expect they’d err on the side of the manufacturer’s specs.
Was hoping to get a reply from @vc commodore, as he works with wheels and tires.
 

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Was hoping to get a reply from @vc commodore, as he works with wheels and tires.

VSI09 specified rules around what is legal. Within that doc, it states that if one requires more technical information to reference the latest Rim & Tyre Associations of Australia Standards Manual.

The National Guideline for the Modification of Street Rods in Australia (2013 edition) section 7.3.2 also references the Rim & Tyre Associations of Australia Standards Manual specifically to address what is acceptable tire to rim fitment.

The fact that latest Rim & Tyre Standards Manual is referenced within government posted documents and the revised 2023 doc costs $110, it puts it behind a paywall which is a pet hate of mine… I won’t be buying a copy

Hopefully @vc commodore will clarify what the Standards Manual actually states. A pic of the relevant page would be ideal.

Not that any of this is the likely cause of the ESC issues but it’s interesting anyway.
 

lmoengnr

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VSI09 specified rules around what is legal. Within that doc, it states that if one requires more technical information to reference the latest Rim & Tyre Associations of Australia Standards Manual.

The National Guideline for the Modification of Street Rods in Australia (2013 edition) section 7.3.2 also references the Rim & Tyre Associations of Australia Standards Manual specifically to address what is acceptable tire to rim fitment.

The fact that latest Rim & Tyre Standards Manual is referenced within government posted documents and the revised 2023 doc costs $110, it puts it behind a paywall which is a pet hate of mine… I won’t be buying a copy

Hopefully @vc commodore will clarify what the Standards Manual actually states. A pic of the relevant page would be ideal.

Not that any of this is the likely cause of the ESC issues but it’s interesting anyway.
I just think an 8.5" wheel is too narrow for a 275 tire, causing the tread profile to bulge in the center, which would increase with speed.
 

vc commodore

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I have the same tire placard on my Maloo, but HSV fits 275 tires on 9.5" rims.
I did ask about fitting 275 tires to an 8.5" wheel, which seems oversize for that sized rim. The polished alloy second gen. Redline wheels were only available in 8.5".
Is it legal for a tire shop to fit a 275 tire on an 8.5" wheel?

Considering you have mentioned they came from the factory with a 19 X8.5, in post #10, a 275 should be fine on that rim
 
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