VS V6 Turbo build

[Draimond]

I mean we all start off as bolt on guys. Depends how far you want to go / do yourself / learn and how much money you want to save in labour.

I did some of the HP academy courses online, watched all of the skid factory and spoke with people like the guys at nugget garage and haltech to learn what I've put into my build.

I'll have my full V6 turbo engine wiring harness diagram up on the forums by December, it just needs relay diagrams and to be checked off by haltech. I'm sure it'll be useful to anyone here on this same kind of journey. If you can crimp 1 wire, you can crimp 150.

As for the rest of the build, have a look at my build thread for parts and cost insights. I'm about halfway through the work and have purchased most of my parts.

Once I've got my own setup tuned and working I would be more than happy to help you or anybody else through any part of the process including step-by-step wiring if needed.

I don't know how far you can go with factory ECUs, particularly with using them on different cars and with different configurations. Can an LS1 ECU even be "tuned" to run 2 less cylinders?

Either way, you'll have a much better idea once you speak to someone who's got experience with the V6 Commodore platform.

I have my doubts about 250rwkw with a factory ECU and a stock 4L60E auto on 98 octane long term. Especially without wideband O2 control ... You could go full 1990s spec and run a seperate pyrometer next to the boost gauge on the A pillar to try monitor EGTs and air/fuel mix manually.

The theory is that a rising rate fuel pressure reg should be able to get into the correct ballpark for air fuel mixture mechanically and without any ECU assistance. But you're putting all your faith on a "dumb" mechanical system to give a rough fuel quantity.

Speaking of dumb mechanical devices, your wastegate won't have a boost control solenoid with no (PWM) pulse with modulation outputs from a factory ECU. Go to YouTube and type in "Driving for Answers All Boost Control" to see why a boost T is not ideal in 2020+

Ask anyone who made big power 20 years ago and they'll tell you how jank their setup was compared to the technology we have today. That technology that enables us to make the same power today, but with high levels of control, accuracy and safety. And still, really it's E85, wideband and an ECU that makes boosted NA a thing at all. I dunno man, I just... You find me someone who says who can do it without an aftermarket ECU, give me their phone number and I'll argue with them till they say, ok you're probably correct. If not I bet the phrase "you can get away with" will come out a lot.

You did say you don't want to do things twice. I'm not saying right or wrong. I will say, there is A way to do it and there is a Better way to do it.

 

[Deuce]

I mean we all start off as bolt on guys. Depends how far you want to go / do yourself / learn and how much money you want to save in labour.

I did some of the HP academy courses online, watched all of the skid factory and spoke with people like the guys at nugget garage and haltech to learn what I've put into my build.

I'll have my full V6 turbo engine wiring harness diagram up on the forums by December, it just needs relay diagrams and to be checked off by haltech. I'm sure it'll be useful to anyone here on this same kind of journey. If you can crimp 1 wire, you can crimp 150.

As for the rest of the build, have a look at my build thread for parts and cost insights. I'm about halfway through the work and have purchased most of my parts.

Once I've got my own setup tuned and working I would be more than happy to help you or anybody else through any part of the process including step-by-step wiring if needed.

I don't know how far you can go with factory ECUs, particularly with using them on different cars and with different configurations. Can an LS1 ECU even be "tuned" to run 2 less cylinders?

Either way, you'll have a much better idea once you speak to someone who's got experience with the V6 Commodore platform.

I have my doubts about 250rwkw with a factory ECU and a stock 4L60E auto on 98 octane long term. Especially without wideband O2 control ... You could go full 1990s spec and run a seperate pyrometer next to the boost gauge on the A pillar to try monitor EGTs and air/fuel mix manually.

The theory is that a rising rate fuel pressure reg should be able to get into the correct ballpark for air fuel mixture mechanically and without any ECU assistance. But you're putting all your faith on a "dumb" mechanical system to give a rough fuel quantity.

Speaking of dumb mechanical devices, your wastegate won't have a boost control solenoid with no (PWM) pulse with modulation outputs from a factory ECU. Go to YouTube and type in "Driving for Answers All Boost Control" to see why a boost T is not ideal in 2020+

Ask anyone who made big power 20 years ago and they'll tell you how jank their setup was compared to the technology we have today. That technology that enables us to make the same power today, but with high levels of control, accuracy and safety. And still, really it's E85, wideband and an ECU that makes boosted NA a thing at all. I dunno man, I just... You find me someone who says who can do it without an aftermarket ECU, give me their phone number and I'll argue with them till they say, ok you're probably correct. If not I bet the phrase "you can get away with" will come out a lot.

You did say you don't want to do things twice. I'm not saying right or wrong. I will say, there is A way to do it and there is a Better way to do it.

I'm not going to stand here and say you are wrong.
But I am going to point out that delcowizid (who OP quoted in first post) went 10's and got kicked from the track (no cage) with a v6 (can't remember if Eco or Buick) turbo, tuned on a stock (424?) pcm and possibly still 4l60e. All fitted in to a black VB.

I don't know what a haltec is like to tune (probably easier than a Delco). But just saying with the correct setup, it can be done with stock ECU.

 

[Cameron Tomlonson]

This thing runs 10s on l36 bottom end and just ring gapped.
Std ecu and built auto. Supercharged with NOS

 

[Immortality]

I'm not going to stand here and say you are wrong.
But I am going to point out that delcowizid (who OP quoted in first post) went 10's and got kicked from the track (no cage) with a v6 (can't remember if Eco or Buick) turbo, tuned on a stock (424?) pcm and possibly still 4l60e. All fitted in to a black VB.

I don't know what a haltec is like to tune (probably easier than a Delco). But just saying with the correct setup, it can be done with stock ECU.

It was the older 3800 V6, originally with a T5 and then swapped out for a T350 auto box.

 

[Draimond]

You're talking about essentially a specialist, somebody who was keen to get into the weeds of the factory ecu's and see just how much you could get away with years ago.

When you're chasing times at the drag strip a lot of stuff goes out the window and you just do anything you can to make these things work.

You cannot compare what they do at the drag strip to what's necessary to keep and engine healthy in day-to-day varied conditions. Different fuels, different atmospheric pressures an oxygen content, load cells that a drag car would never see in 400m at wide open throttle.

You can't just stick resistors in your intake air temperature sensor and expect to idle in traffic. And they used to run those things rich as all hell because the narrow band O2 was basically useless. You'll have to 'read your plugs' after each trip to the grocery store.

It's not about easier to tune.
The reason why you use an aftermarket ECU is so you have stuff like flex fuel composition, wideband O2, egt, sequential injection and direct fire ignition timing control, boost solenoid control, advanced knock detection and a host of engine protection strategies.

But sure it will 'work'

 

[Draimond]

 

[Immortality]

You're talking about essentially a specialist, somebody who was keen to get into the weeds of the factory ecu's and see just how much you could get away with years ago.

When you're chasing times at the drag strip a lot of stuff goes out the window and you just do anything you can to make these things work.

You cannot compare what they do at the drag strip to what's necessary to keep and engine healthy in day-to-day varied conditions. Different fuels, different atmospheric pressures an oxygen content, load cells that a drag car would never see in 400m at wide open throttle.

You can't just stick resistors in your intake air temperature sensor and expect to idle in traffic. And they used to run those things rich as all hell because the narrow band O2 was basically useless. You'll have to 'read your plugs' after each trip to the grocery store.

It's not about easier to tune.
The reason why you use an aftermarket ECU is so you have stuff like flex fuel composition, wideband O2, egt, sequential injection and direct fire ignition timing control, boost solenoid control, advanced knock detection and a host of engine protection strategies.

But sure it will 'work'

Sure mate but you are completely wrong there.

The factory ECU is fully tuneable with WB O2 sensors and has been for quite some time. Sure it doesn't have all the fancy stuff like some of the aftermarket system but even those have only had all the added features in the last few years.

What you do at the drag strip isn't really tuning, it's deciding how much boost to throw at it and hope the track can hold it. Once you have "tuned the car" aka getting your fuel and timing maps right you shouldn't be playing with those all the time. It's not like it's a 7 second car where traction management is a major issue.

For a couple hundred dollars you can turn a stock factory ecu/PCM into a full "live" tuneable platform with WB input, you can literally have someone drive the car down the road and have someone else on the laptop tuning the car as you drive adjusting fuel and ignition tables and what ever else needs adjustment on the fly. Not bad for something that has been around for about a decade now.

The factory ecotec PCM is already full sequential injection so you aren't gaining anything there either going to aftermarket. It's been a bloody long time since people have tried to tune stock engines using rising rate FPR's and resistors on the intake air temp sensor and anyone considering doing that **** now needs to have their heads read.

I honestly don't care much which way people go and spend there money but I don't like to see a complete misrepresentation of what can be done with the factory stuff, it's come a long way and in some ways the boys at PCM hacking were ahead of the curve compared to some of the after market offerings for quite sometime. It's just a shame most tuners aren't interested in using it and only want to sell you what ever they are used to tuning which tends to be Haltech in Australia.

 

[Cameron Tomlonson]

Sure mate but you are completely wrong there.

The factory ECU is fully tuneable with WB O2 sensors and has been for quite some time. Sure it doesn't have all the fancy stuff like some of the aftermarket system but even those have only had all the added features in the last few years.

What you do at the drag strip isn't really tuning, it's deciding how much boost to throw at it and hope the track can hold it. Once you have "tuned the car" aka getting your fuel and timing maps right you shouldn't be playing with those all the time. It's not like it's a 7 second car where traction management is a major issue.

For a couple hundred dollars you can turn a stock factory ecu/PCM into a full "live" tuneable platform with WB input, you can literally have someone drive the car down the road and have someone else on the laptop tuning the car as you drive adjusting fuel and ignition tables and what ever else needs adjustment on the fly. Not bad for something that has been around for about a decade now.

The factory ecotec PCM is already full sequential injection so you aren't gaining anything there either going to aftermarket. It's been a bloody long time since people have tried to tune stock engines using rising rate FPR's and resistors on the intake air temp sensor and anyone considering doing that **** now needs to have their heads read.

I honestly don't care much which way people go and spend there money but I don't like to see a complete misrepresentation of what can be done with the factory stuff, it's come a long way and in some ways the boys at PCM hacking were ahead of the curve compared to some of the after market offerings for quite sometime. It's just a shame most tuners aren't interested in using it and only want to sell you what ever they are used to tuning which tends to be Haltech in Australia.

This is what my research had lead me to believe also.
There are apparently 2 in Geelong who can tune stock ecu's. 1 is a mostly ford guy so i think I'll skip him and go the the walky approved place that can do it.

Ask what i need eg fuel wise - injectors and pump, also what plugs to run with what gap.

 

[Immortality]

There are online calculators to help with that stuff.

Are you talking about fuel type or just how much fuel flow?

First you need to figure out how much power roughly you think you will make, then use an online calculator to figure out what size injectors are required and how much fuel pump you will need. aim to get injectors with no more than 70-80% DC at the power level you think you will make. To much fuel pump can be almost as bad as not enough. To much pump just heats the fuel and can cause vapor lock issues. Spec these about right and you will have some head room for future mods/more power.

Plugs wise an experienced tuner should be able to give guidance. Stock plugs gapped down a bit is a good starting point, then as you start to make power/boost you need to check the plugs (regardless of the type of PCM you are running) looking at the timing mark and heat on the plug. Too big a gap and you will start to see a ignition miss, too hot and you will experience spark knock sooner limiting how much timing you can run.

Supercharger is a bit different to turbo but right now I'm running about 11-12psi using after market coils, autolite 104 plugs (2 heat ranges cooler than stock) and about a 1.4mm plug gap using Gull e10 98 ron fuel. It starts to get an ignition miss when the plug gap opens up to just under 1.5mm.

Smaller plug gaps don't really hurt power unless you go really small put smaller plug gaps do hurt economy which is important if the car is a daily driver.

 

[Cameron Tomlonson]

There are online calculators to help with that stuff.

Are you talking about fuel type or just how much fuel flow?

First you need to figure out how much power roughly you think you will make, then use an online calculator to figure out what size injectors are required and how much fuel pump you will need. aim to get injectors with no more than 70-80% DC at the power level you think you will make. To much fuel pump can be almost as bad as not enough. To much pump just heats the fuel and can cause vapor lock issues. Spec these about right and you will have some head room for future mods/more power.

Plugs wise an experienced tuner should be able to give guidance. Stock plugs gapped down a bit is a good starting point, then as you start to make power/boost you need to check the plugs (regardless of the type of PCM you are running) looking at the timing mark and heat on the plug. Too big a gap and you will start to see a ignition miss, too hot and you will experience spark knock sooner limiting how much timing you can run.

Supercharger is a bit different to turbo but right now I'm running about 11-12psi using after market coils, autolite 104 plugs (2 heat ranges cooler than stock) and about a 1.4mm plug gap using Gull e10 98 ron fuel. It starts to get an ignition miss when the plug gap opens up to just under 1.5mm.

Smaller plug gaps don't really hurt power unless you go really small put smaller plug gaps do hurt economy which is important if the car is a daily driver.

Pump 98 fuel and 220 to 250 rwkw is the goal.
Yeah was thinking just gapping std plugs to start with.
Will be having discussion with tuner to get these right b4 dyno session