VW Vs EPA drama ?

[Skydrol]

For some odd reason electric cars here are protected. Tesla for example, receives tons of Tax Breaks, Grants and because EPA Cap and Trade they are eligible to sell their carbon credits to other manufacturers. Still, they still have a carbon footprint like any other manufacturer. The battery manufacturing pollute (not done in the USA) more than an assembly line that made the Hummer. Cradle to Grave are consider hazardous waste and none recyclable. Still, because the car is electric they can sell their Extortion Carbon Credits. Not defending VW nor against it; just seeking the truth.

Here in the states, the VW TDI is getting better fuel efficiency than any Hybrid on the market for less and still looks like a car instead of a Geek/Nerdmobile. Remember seen on the road ads about their fuel economy, slowly, they just plain disappeared. For ages, Diesel cars were trying to make it in the USA market and always had some against them that made them not cost effective. For example, my wife bought an 07 VW Beetle. The dealer had an 07 TDI Beetle, we drove it and loved that cavernous deep low RPM torque. Not a slouch, did not smelled and the engine was quiet as a mouse; you cannot even tell was a Diesel. They had one little problem... 5 Cly Gasoline engine was $22,000; TDI $34,000 no market adjustment, no special incentives, no discounts, no lower interest rate, no leases. For us was more cost effective to buy Gasoline because at the time fuel prices, you need to drive it over 10 years to get your money back on fuel savings. Now, VW is selling the TDI on any car starting at about mid $20,000 and any Hybrid is about mid $30,000 and that is with Gov incentives; the Volt is about $45,000 (can buy a VF Commodore "Chevy SS" for that much coin). One thing that came through the grapevine that at the end of the current administration, all hybrids and electrics will not have the Gov subsidy (expiration). TDI in another hand, is a great engine that is multifuel and loved by all greenies because they run Bio-Diesel.

Perhaps the Diesel engine is cursed... does anybody know Rudolf Diesel story?

 

[mpower]

For some odd reason electric cars here are protected. Tesla for example, receives tons of Tax Breaks, Grants and because EPA Cap and Trade they are eligible to sell their carbon credits to other manufacturers. Still, they still have a carbon footprint like any other manufacturer. The battery manufacturing pollute (not done in the USA) more than an assembly line that made the Hummer. Cradle to Grave are consider hazardous waste and none recyclable. Still, because the car is electric they can sell their Extortion Carbon Credits. Not defending VW nor against it; just seeking the truth.

Here in the states, the VW TDI is getting better fuel efficiency than any Hybrid on the market for less and still looks like a car instead of a Geek/Nerdmobile. Remember seen on the road ads about their fuel economy, slowly, they just plain disappeared. For ages, Diesel cars were trying to make it in the USA market and always had some against them that made them not cost effective. For example, my wife bought an 07 VW Beetle. The dealer had an 07 TDI Beetle, we drove it and loved that cavernous deep low RPM torque. Not a slouch, did not smelled and the engine was quiet as a mouse; you cannot even tell was a Diesel. They had one little problem... 5 Cly Gasoline engine was $22,000; TDI $34,000 no market adjustment, no special incentives, no discounts, no lower interest rate, no leases. For us was more cost effective to buy Gasoline because at the time fuel prices, you need to drive it over 10 years to get your money back on fuel savings. Now, VW is selling the TDI on any car starting at about mid $20,000 and any Hybrid is about mid $30,000 and that is with Gov incentives. One thing that came through the grapevine that at the end of the current administration, all hybrids and electrics will not have the Gov subsidy (expiration). TDI in another hand, is a great engine that is multifuel and loved by all greenies because they run Bio-Diesel.

Perhaps the Diesel engine is cursed... does anybody know Rudolf Christian Karl Diesel story?

Funny thing happened on the way though, VW claimed those credits too mate.... via fraud.

U.S. taxpayers duped into shelling out $51 million in green subsidies for 'clean' VW vehicles - LA Times

On Friday, federal and state regulators said the German automaker used software in 482,000 of its diesel vehicles since the 2009 model year to cheat on U.S. emissions tests. Environmental Protection Agency officials said Monday that the U.S. Department of Justice is also investigating.

The Times analysis matched Internal Revenue Service data with Volkswagen sales figures to determine the value of subsidies VW diesel buyers were eligible to collect in 2009, the first and only year the vehicles qualified. The $1,300 tax credit would have been available to buyers of about 39,500 Jetta and Jetta Sportwagen models that sold that year, according to Motor Intelligence, an industry research firm.

"It is really unfortunate," said Luke Tonachel, director of clean vehicles and fuels project at the Natural Resources Defense Council. "The government has been effective to help advance clean technologies, but it is a waste of taxpayer dollars when they aren't actually helping to clean the environment."

He said regulators should factor in the $51 million in subsidies when determining penalties for Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations.

Such green car incentives have also gone to buyers of hybrid, electric and hydrogen fuel cell cars. But the EPA does not track aggregate figures for incentives paid out to buyers of specific models or brands.


The Volkswagen diesels qualified for the federal incentives in the same year the automaker first installed the software trick it used to cheat on emissions tests. The so-called defeat device employed an algorithm that automatically detects when the vehicle is undergoing pollution tests and changes the way the engine performs.

 

[Calaber]

Who gives a flying ####? Typical beat up by "media".

As if they don't all do it! It doesn't affect anything or anyone. Move on.

It mightn't affect us as we don't have the EPA levels that some US states have, but the scale of the deception is significant. It's reported as a deliberate action taken to manipulate the programming of the engine management system with the explicit aim of meeting legal standards then reverting to normal operation at much higher emissions levels. Other manufacturers probably have done something similar, but the number of vehicles involved is reported at around half a million.

Plenty of "enviro-conscous" buyers are really ticked off that the environmentally friendly car they thought they bought isn't so friendly after all. Government fines might not amount to much, but if a reasonable percentage of buyers decide to take the matter up, it could be a very big class action, as already mentioned.


And don't the Yanks love litigation?

 

[Hertz Donut]

- Company share value down $26B in one day.
- Up to $18B of EPA fines possible (Up to $37,500 per car x ~500,000 cars)
- VW Group CEO falls in his sword
- ~500,000 US customers just waiting to sue VW if they take their car in under a recall and it comes back slower and thirstier.

GLWfuture, VW...

 

[Skydrol]

I know... add to the German economy, Greece, Refugees, failing Euro and the world's #1 car manufacturer hit with such a mess. I can see some plant closing, jobs affected.

For now I am going to sit and wait for the development. Paying retribution, just like post both World Wars.

I think it will be some serious talks between our nations.


Interesting is the article. On my state does not have such incentive as far I know. When I did my taxes the question never came up.

Yes Calaber, litigation is one of the USA pastimes beside eating.

 

[Eevo]

i wonder if other car manufacturers have been doing it

 

[mpower]

- Company share value down $26B in one day.
- Up to $18B of EPA fines possible (Up to $37,500 per car x ~500,000 cars)
- VW Group CEO falls in his sword
- ~500,000 US customers just waiting to sue VW if they take their car in under a recall and it comes back slower and thirstier.

GLWfuture, VW...

Widespread misinformation and gassing millions? Hitler would be so proud.

 

[Rajesh Koothrappali]

i wonder if other car manufacturers have been doing it

Of course they have!

When there's a test that's done completely independently of real world use, how is the test even legitimate to start with? It's not.

Having a test mode on a car is no different to having a track mode. Just because it's a mode the car is capable of doesn't mean that's how it will always be used under real world, every day conditions.

Widespread misinformation and gassing millions?

Wow! And there's a comment above that says I don't understand... LOL!!!

 

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

Programming to pass EPA emissions testing in one state in the US and various countries across Europe when the rest of the world don't have the same limits. The majority of sales by VW are into areas that the vehicles actually pass without this software, so who is more greedy? California, particularly LA, is more a geographic issue than a pollution one. The native American name for LA translated to "Valley of Smoke", they wouldn't live there. The state tries to reduce pollutants to reduce smog so it's comfortable for the people to live in a bad place. Taxing polluters sure works for the government, it's easier to get revenue from polluters by making them comply to their regulations or pay a tax *cough "fine"* so they can emit more.

Europe is the same with their emissions testing and limits. The well developed countries impose high limits and taxes to compensate for he higher polluters that don't have the resources or the personal wealth to afford to comply.

According to Rueters.com. China is the largest polluter in the world, followed by USA, Russia, India, Japan, Germany and Canada. One state in the USA and Germany are the only two on this list that have strict emissions limits that VW have "cheated", to me, these limits are a business decision not a an environmental one. Pay a tax, pay a fine, pay pay pay because that looks after the environment. Carbon Tax bullshit. I'm not a greeny, but I am environmentally aware and I'd like to see a greener world. But fining a manufacturer for getting around emissions limits in a small segment of their market is hardly being a champion for the environment.

 

[gossie]

i wonder if other car manufacturers have been doing it

You can bet your sweet bipee on that one.
Just wait 'till the fit really hits the shan.

Quite frankly, like it or not what I say, but I would like to see diesel private cars banned.