20" Baretta wheels on VF II

[Strattos]

From my own research, the difference of ride quality between 19" & 20" is barley noticeable. However 18" to 19" is a more noticeable change in ride quality.

This was my experience as well. I went from standard SS (non Redline) rims to HF20s on an already lowered car and noticed minimal difference in ride quality. Love the way the 20s look over the Redlines, which I was looking at at the time - certainly not knocking the Redline rims, just my take.

I've kept my original rims, and knowing the HF20s were a factory option makes me comfortable that it's still sort of as Holden intended.

 

[Skylarking]

@vc commodore , I understand what you’re say but ‘simple fact’ can be a moving target when ‘bureaucrats’ are involved, specially across states (which aren’t consistent).

As is, many 4x4 lift companies were also certain in their interpretation of the modification rules. QLD and WA suddenly took a strict interpretation of the rules on vehicles with ESC and mayhem ensued. Owners who were compliant one day were being defected the next. Bureaucrats.

A strict interpretation of the rules w.r.t wheel mods as they’ve been explained to be by the regulators seems to be the safest course for any business to take, in today’s climate, where bureaucrats can’t really be trusted (if history is anything to go by).

And the kicker is defined in:

Guide to Modifications for Motor Vehicle

13.7 Modifications to Vehicles Equipped with ESC
Many modern vehicles are now being equipped with a safety feature known as Electronic Stability Control (ESC).
(ESC is also known by other terms including vehicle stability control or dynamic stability control). ESC provides motorists additional safety in terms of vehicle stability and handling, particularly in difficult situations where loss of control could otherwise occur.
ESC uses computer technology to assist the driver in maintaining control in emergency situations – particularly when executing avoidance manoeuvres involving sudden swerving and in cases when the vehicle begins to slide and rotate sideways.
Braking is automatically applied to individual wheels, such as the outer front wheel to counter oversteer, or the inner rear wheel to counter understeer. Some ESC systems also reduce engine power until steering control is regained.
ESC is programmed by the vehicle manufacturer for the vehicle to which it is fitted taking into account a number of design parameters such as brake, engine and transmission performance, tyre specifications, steering systems, suspension (type and performance characteristics), mass of the vehicle and weight distribution.
For modification codes contained in Section LS of VSB 14, evidence should be obtained either from the vehicle manufacturer or through testing to determine the impact on the ESC system. To remain within the scope of this Section of VSB 14, a vehicle fitted with ESC must not be modified if the operation of the ESC is affected unless the ESC system is adjusted to restore its original operational characteristics.
Similarly, vehicles equipped with ESC must not have the ESC control unit disconnected.

The above passage is also repeated in Section LS of VSB 14. Basically it’s the clause that has thrown a spanner in previous interpretation of the 4x4 suspension lift rules. Rims/tyres are next. And a vehicle manufacturer will not help you while doing ECS testing is silly expensive (which is why the 4x4 mod businesses are making lots of noise).

 

[Forg]

The authorities can suddenly re-interpret anything at random ... I still recall the furore they caused when they suddenly re-interpreted pod filters as not meeting noise-level laws & blanket-banned them (a few days before a solid weekend of EPA & police mass defectings).

But given the infinite state of language, the best you can do with any of this stuff is go with the current rulings & interpretations. Or totally give up on something you love.

 

[Poor old Dad]

My car was fitted with 20" Baretta wheels from the factory.

The dealer sold it to me with 18" wheels.

Mine was the opposite - Prior to sale the dealer fitted 20" Barettas.. They graciously fitted 4 and left the spare as 18"... I ended up gutter rashing one so bought another Baretta from a dealer a year or so later and use the damaged one as a spare).

I had misgivings about 20" given that my car car is used solely for our roadtrips - WA, Uluru, Darwin, poss Tas next year.

Obviously mine has a softer ride than yours but there are no issues with 20"s on mine.

I bought a set of aftermarket 18"s for my previous car (for our roadtrips) and was quite prepared to the same for this one but not required.

FWIW I really like the look of the Barettas as well

 

[vc commodore]

There’s a rim-width issue though, isn’t there? In most states, only 1” wider than “standard” is allowed?
I mean the definition of “standard” is potentially what’s being argued here, innit? ie. whether an Omega can fit wheels 1” wider than a GTS is a question; but if we take a Honda Accord which was only ever fitted with 6.5” wide wheels, then only 7.5” wheels can be fitted (assuming no fouling & the same offset)?

Nope....As long as the track isnt increased more than 25 or 26 MM from the widest available wheel available for that make of car, and doesn't foul any components, you're honky dorey.


As for the make of car thing....That includes all model variants.....After all, the increased track puts stress on studs, wheel bearings, racks and drive shafts/axles.....And from what I know, all these parts are basically identical, so it would have been engineered to suit the widest wheel available for a particular make of car.....So it wouldn't be a problem

 

[vc commodore]

@vc commodore , I understand what you’re say but ‘simple fact’ can be a moving target when ‘bureaucrats’ are involved, specially across states (which aren’t consistent).

As is, many 4x4 lift companies were also certain in their interpretation of the modification rules. QLD and WA suddenly took a strict interpretation of the rules on vehicles with ESC and mayhem ensued. Owners who were compliant one day were being defected the next. Bureaucrats.

A strict interpretation of the rules w.r.t wheel mods as they’ve been explained to be by the regulators seems to be the safest course for any business to take, in today’s climate, where bureaucrats can’t really be trusted (if history is anything to go by).

And the kicker is defined in:

Guide to Modifications for Motor Vehicle

13.7 Modifications to Vehicles Equipped with ESC
Many modern vehicles are now being equipped with a safety feature known as Electronic Stability Control (ESC).
(ESC is also known by other terms including vehicle stability control or dynamic stability control). ESC provides motorists additional safety in terms of vehicle stability and handling, particularly in difficult situations where loss of control could otherwise occur.
ESC uses computer technology to assist the driver in maintaining control in emergency situations – particularly when executing avoidance manoeuvres involving sudden swerving and in cases when the vehicle begins to slide and rotate sideways.
Braking is automatically applied to individual wheels, such as the outer front wheel to counter oversteer, or the inner rear wheel to counter understeer. Some ESC systems also reduce engine power until steering control is regained.
ESC is programmed by the vehicle manufacturer for the vehicle to which it is fitted taking into account a number of design parameters such as brake, engine and transmission performance, tyre specifications, steering systems, suspension (type and performance characteristics), mass of the vehicle and weight distribution.
For modification codes contained in Section LS of VSB 14, evidence should be obtained either from the vehicle manufacturer or through testing to determine the impact on the ESC system. To remain within the scope of this Section of VSB 14, a vehicle fitted with ESC must not be modified if the operation of the ESC is affected unless the ESC system is adjusted to restore its original operational characteristics.
Similarly, vehicles equipped with ESC must not have the ESC control unit disconnected.

The above passage is also repeated in Section LS of VSB 14. Basically it’s the clause that has thrown a spanner in previous interpretation of the 4x4 suspension lift rules. Rims/tyres are next. And a vehicle manufacturer will not help you while doing ECS testing is silly expensive (which is why the 4x4 mod businesses are making lots of noise).

Now you're quoting 4X4 stuff.....Lifting a 4X4 is another area all together, when it comes to various safety issues related to the lift.

All cars are engineered to suit the maximum width rim available for each model variant. That is why, you can go anywhere within this country, have wheels and tyres fitted and know you are within the law, providing the douche' bags know their job properly.

You can dispute it until you are blue in the face...Simple fact is, this "modification" is acceptable uniform throughout this country and can be done without any engineering report or fear of reprisals from your local transport authority.

So keep doing your internet quoting...The internet doesn't do the manual labour and the internet doesn't have to worry about a man sitting behind a bench

 

[Skylarking]

Nope....As long as the track isnt increased more than 25 or 26 MM from the widest available wheel available for that make of car, and doesn't foul any components, you're honky dorey.

As for the make of car thing....That includes all model variants.....After all, the increased track puts stress on studs, wheel bearings, racks and drive shafts/axles.....And from what I know, all these parts are basically identical, so it would have been engineered to suit the widest wheel available for a particular make of car.....So it wouldn't be a problem

You seem to understand the mechanical side but are ignoring ESC and the model variant calibration files that the vehicles were certified against. That’s where the uncertainty that I’ve been mentioning comes from.

Now you're quoting 4X4 stuff.....Lifting a 4X4 is another area all together, when it comes to various safety issues related to the lift.

All cars are engineered to suit the maximum width rim available for each model variant. That is why, you can go anywhere within this country, have wheels and tyres fitted and know you are within the law, providing the douche' bags know their job properly.

You can dispute it until you are blue in the face...Simple fact is, this "modification" is acceptable uniform throughout this country and can be done without any engineering report or fear of reprisals from your local transport authority.

So keep doing your internet quoting...The internet doesn't do the manual labour and the internet doesn't have to worry about a man sitting behind a bench

It’s already been highlighted by others that there seems to be a discrepancy between allowable rim width increase between different states so your view of “Australia wide” may indeed be flawed. I’ve also tried to explain the subtle shift in use of the term model variant when it comes to vehicle compliance. Sadly this shift in terminology is building momentum.

The point of referencing the 4x4 stuff was purely to indicate what is ok today may not be ok tomorrow. If you can’t understand that example and comprehend that bureaucracies actions can spin on a definition or paragraph then nothing can sway your understanding.

Your continual attempt to define your POV always seems to become a little derogatory when someone has a differing view. Even providing some references is something that you flip into an insult.

You think that because you work within the tyre industry, your view (handed to you by the industry body) is the authoritative and only view. Well, sadly there were many 4x4 suspension places that probably had exactly the same mindset as you do (and they also have an industry body representing them).

Guess you can take a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.

So, I’m done with your insults.

 

[vc commodore]

You seem to understand the mechanical side but are ignoring ESC and the model variant calibration files that the vehicles were certified against. That’s where the uncertainty that I’ve been mentioning comes from.
It’s already been highlighted by others that there seems to be a discrepancy between allowable rim width increase between different states so your view of “Australia wide” may indeed be flawed. I’ve also tried to explain the subtle shift in use of the term model variant when it comes to vehicle compliance. Sadly this shift in terminology is building momentum.

The point of referencing the 4x4 stuff was purely to indicate what is ok today may not be ok tomorrow. If you can’t understand that example and comprehend that bureaucracies actions can spin on a definition or paragraph then nothing can sway your understanding.

Your continual attempt to define your POV always seems to become a little derogatory when someone has a differing view. Even providing some references is something that you flip into an insult.

You think that because you work within the tyre industry, your view (handed to you by the industry body) is the authoritative and only view. Well, sadly there were many 4x4 suspension places that probably had exactly the same mindset as you do (and they also have an industry body representing them).

Guess you can take a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.

So, I’m done with your insults.

Half the problem is, you enjoy quoting from the internet.....Just like some other member, which we all are aware of.

I'll suggest the same thing I've suggested to the other member....Work in the job and then comment.....

When the rules shift relating to this, I'll be made aware of it, because it is part of my job to know about it, to save any appearances in front of that man behind the bench....

Strangely enough, even being a dumb ass fitter, we are held liable for any misfitament of wheels and tyres, if a car is involved in an accident or if the car is found unroadworthy by the locals in this area.....And it doesn't matter where the car is registered or any of this occurs....We are liable Australia wide

 

[Skylarking]

^ you’re at it again with insults... I’m starting to think you don’t even know when you’re insulting people.

Half the problem...? there is no problem other than your comprehension skills....

And your outlook where only those that have worked in an industry for many years can express ‘the correct view’ is deeply flawed. Such has a sense of arrogance about it.

You, in your own words are a ‘dump ass fitter’ that needs to be told by your industry when ‘the rules shift’ at which point you’ll be ‘made aware that something has changed’. May be you should try and think for yourself some time, you might find it refreshing.

As to those links (to regulators) that you seem to despise, well they are provided to put my understanding of the issue into context (after speaking to the regulators). Rather than answer intelligently, you resort to throwing insults...

So, just sit back, relax, keep doing what you are doing, you’ll be told when the change occurs.