Is anyone considering the NG commodore after their VF?

[VT&VX]

just don't drive it on dirt roads or push it past 8 10ths and you can live with it, it

This..

If they used REALLY really good suspension components that never age and start feeling old, then these modern FWD might continue to feel neutral..... but that doesn't happen in the real world for most.

Cars get old and suspension gets a bit tired. An old tired suspension on a rear wheel drive is still OK 20 years later (without much maintenance).

 

[Forg]

FWD's can handle ? that depends on what you mean by handling.
Smaller cars are not as bad as the bigger FWD's.
The Mini for example on the race trace did well back in them days, I don't think they did well in rally driving, if they did I don't remember them, the Datsun 1600 and the Ford Escorts were the go.

Offroad there's some value in a good Scando Flick, can still be the fastest way 'round a corner.
Notsomuch on bitumen though (even crappy bitumen).
I don't know if it's still a "Scandinavian Flick" if you're doing it the FWD way? You can oversteer a proper-handling FWD car 'round a corner, but you're not applying power in the same way obviously.
The Minis did fairly well way-back-when but I think more endurance events & the like, Escorts & 1600's were definitely more the go (in Oz at least). I think there's some engine-related Stuff going-on there though, what with Nissan (I believe?) having copied & then downsized Benz DOHC setups and Ford cars having access to Lotus & Cosworth DOHC & even 16V heads. So much more off-the-shelf power:weight available for the slightly larger but much-bigger-engine-bay RWD alternatives back then.

Big FWD are rubbish just look at the yanks and the junk FWD's they made, modern day FWD can be a good driving car, I was impressed with the Toyota Aurion for a FWD and most people would be totally happy as to drive such a thing, it's not my cup of tea

You can't really put a V6 Camry forward as an example of how a car does ANYTHING apart from keep food & drink cold.

Old, "heavy" FWD cars which were crap back then were no heavier than a Megane RS275 is today. In fact, while I've not driven to compare, I'd have my money on a stock RS275 over any LSA HSV around a course where handling matters more than outright grunt (I don't know the layout of many tracks - but I'd expect an RS275 to be quicker around, say, Philip Island or the old Oran Park ... I'd expect the GTS would have the legs for Bathurst though).

Do we yet know whether the ZB is definitely FWD-biased AWD?

If they used REALLY really good suspension components that never age and start feeling old, then these modern FWD might continue to feel neutral..... but that doesn't happen in the real world for most.

There's still handling vs roadholding as well, and I'm not sure I fully know the difference.
I don't think that any way you cut it, RWD isn't going to just be a better starting-point for something which is adjustable on the throttle. Toyobaru is I think a really good example, the workmate of mine who's now driving a Cayman GT4 reckons the Toyobaru he had previously actually had more precise & communicative steering ... compared to a GT4 that's high praise indeed.
So while the Megane I mentioned above will probably be beating a Toyobaru due to roadholding, yeah handling, and especially power:weight, I think that the Toyobaru is likely to just be more fun to punt on a country road.

Cars are ridiculously fast these days, all of them. New Corolla would even embarrass a standard VH non-HDT 5L car in the traffic-light drag. Standard Commodore SS's doing 13s-flat quarters, Magnum's megabuck Ferrari struggled to crack 15s & (admittedly poorly geared) A9X's could barely crack 16s!!
So given that everything can keep up with traffic pretty effectively, we probably need to look at where the fun is.
And ... I don't think it's hovering around Commodore-sized AWD cars so much.
Doesn't mean it can't be a decent appliance.

 

[426Cuda]

Offroad there's some value in a good Scando Flick, can still be the fastest way 'round a corner.
Notsomuch on bitumen though (even crappy bitumen).
I don't know if it's still a "Scandinavian Flick" if you're doing it the FWD way? You can oversteer a proper-handling FWD car 'round a corner, but you're not applying power in the same way obviously.
The Minis did fairly well way-back-when but I think more endurance events & the like, Escorts & 1600's were definitely more the go (in Oz at least). I think there's some engine-related Stuff going-on there though, what with Nissan (I believe?) having copied & then downsized Benz DOHC setups and Ford cars having access to Lotus & Cosworth DOHC & even 16V heads. So much more off-the-shelf power:weight available for the slightly larger but much-bigger-engine-bay RWD alternatives back then.


You can't really put a V6 Camry forward as an example of how a car does ANYTHING apart from keep food & drink cold.

Old, "heavy" FWD cars which were crap back then were no heavier than a Megane RS275 is today. In fact, while I've not driven to compare, I'd have my money on a stock RS275 over any LSA HSV around a course where handling matters more than outright grunt (I don't know the layout of many tracks - but I'd expect an RS275 to be quicker around, say, Philip Island or the old Oran Park ... I'd expect the GTS would have the legs for Bathurst though).

Do we yet know whether the ZB is definitely FWD-biased AWD?


There's still handling vs roadholding as well, and I'm not sure I fully know the difference.
I don't think that any way you cut it, RWD isn't going to just be a better starting-point for something which is adjustable on the throttle. Toyobaru is I think a really good example, the workmate of mine who's now driving a Cayman GT4 reckons the Toyobaru he had previously actually had more precise & communicative steering ... compared to a GT4 that's high praise indeed.
So while the Megane I mentioned above will probably be beating a Toyobaru due to roadholding, yeah handling, and especially power:weight, I think that the Toyobaru is likely to just be more fun to punt on a country road.

Cars are ridiculously fast these days, all of them. New Corolla would even embarrass a standard VH non-HDT 5L car in the traffic-light drag. Standard Commodore SS's doing 13s-flat quarters, Magnum's megabuck Ferrari struggled to crack 15s & (admittedly poorly geared) A9X's could barely crack 16s!!
So given that everything can keep up with traffic pretty effectively, we probably need to look at where the fun is.
And ... I don't think it's hovering around Commodore-sized AWD cars so much.
Doesn't mean it can't be a decent appliance.

Interesting.
Yeah it's a little unfair to use a V6 powered Camry (Aurion) as a FWD benchmark. It's sub-par to many others.
It's also unfair to compare modern cars to muscle cars of yore. I guess that proves your point. Although, the A9X had a relatively stock V8. Unlike the L34.
I'd be interested to see a Corolla lead an endurance race, every lap for 6+ hours, and set the lap record on the final lap. The A9X did in 1979. It was so good in fact, it started the demise of touring car racing, as it was then. Similar to what the winged HEMI Daytona's and Superbirds did to NASCAR.
I reckon an AWD Redline or Motorsport would be an amazing car. Had the economics of Aussie car building over the past decade or so, and Uncle Sam in head office, been more kind to Holden, such a car may well have been available.

 

[Forg]

Well

I'd be interested to see a Corolla lead an endurance race, every lap for 6+ hours, and set the lap record on the final lap.

I think Corollas did actually own their class of Group A.
I know it's not the same comparing a lower class to the top one; but on the other hand, an ATCC A9X would have been smashed by a Le Mans car, so maybe my previous sentence does have a valid point in it.

*edit*
Now where's that photo I had from Bathurst '86 of the Corolla Levin Trueno going into a wall on what looks like Reid Park or Griffin's Mount as the Volvo goes past it?

 

[VS 5.0]

Although, the A9X had a relatively stock V8.

And gearing for top speed rather than outright acceleration.

 

[426Cuda]

Well

I think Corollas did actually own their class of Group A.
I know it's not the same comparing a lower class to the top one; but on the other hand, an ATCC A9X would have been smashed by a Le Mans car, so maybe my previous sentence does have a valid point in it.

*edit*
Now where's that photo I had from Bathurst '86 of the Corolla Levin Trueno going into a wall on what looks like Reid Park or Griffin's Mount as the Volvo goes past it?

You're a tragic haha.

 

[Reaper]

FWD costs less to build, which means you can spend more on suspension/chassis tune to get it to handle.

You rob Peter to pay Paul, but Paul still gets paid.

However - no, it’s not the FWD that makes it more modern, it’s the fact it was developed over 10 years later that makes it more modern.

You can chuck as much money at a FWD Commodore you like, it's not going to be a patch on the well sorted RWD platform that the outgoing model was.

 

[Fekason]

No manuals, therefore I will never buy one unless I lose my left leg.

 

[Forg]

You can chuck as much money at a FWD Commodore you like, it's not going to be a patch on the well sorted RWD platform that the outgoing model was.

Depends on the dimensions of said patch!

 

[426Cuda]

Depends on the dimensions of said patch!

Small. 21mg/hr. I'm giving up.

I reckon it will be a really ood car. But, I have 2 great cars. The last thing I need is another sedan.
That twin turbo HSV girly truck though! Hmmm...