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[LS3] Is the Euro 5 VFII affected by detuning... is it 304?

Discussion in 'LSx Development and Modification' started by monstar, Mar 13, 2018.

  1. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

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    Interested to flesh out whether the detuned Euro 5 LS3 fitted to the VFII SS has the same measured (dyno) output as VE (HSV, CSV, VXR, GXP) LS3 at 317 and 325, or even the HSV SV340.

    The final factor of boot badge divided by 1.27 holds true for all variants except the Euro 5, where the best calibrated evidence shows ~220 rwkw which, multiplied by 1.27 is not 304, as claimed in the sales brochures. The output correlates to that of the VEII, which has a 0-100 of 5.4s versus 5.3s of VFII which is fitted with shorter diff gears.

    So, let's see if we can reach a consensus. No opinions please, only post dyno results which are verifiable.

    Third gear pulls and charts not showing derived RPM method are of course good for nothing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
  2. monty_vfssv

    monty_vfssv Active Member

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    27% = auto.. bugger can't comment.
     
  3. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

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    If the dyno test was properly executed to a known standard in 4th gear with actual engine RPM derived torque then is all good input, right?
    Let's see something!
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
  4. PeteSS

    PeteSS Active Member

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    I'll play the game.

    This is a dyno test between VF11 SS and a 340kw HSV LS3.

    if we use the 1.27 rule, the HSV was nowhere near where it should be . incidentally neither was the VF2.

    What it does indicate is a 20rwkw difference between the two. So if Holden is telling porkies, then going by these particular readings, so is HSV


     
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  5. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

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    That does show exactly that the Euro 5 VFII makes less than the Euro 4 HSV 340 - on this scale it makes 20 rwkw more. However although the comparison is valid to demonstrate a clear power difference between the two tunes, for the final result to be accurate the pull would have to be in fourth gear.
     
  6. monty_vfssv

    monty_vfssv Active Member

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    Not my car.

    Vf2 auto, 4th gear pull - stock(242kw) vs CAI(284kw)
     

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  7. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

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    There's no information stating parameters, correction or atmo conditions? Without that it's a couple of lines plotted!
    What diff ratio gets you 180 kph in 4th gear?
     
  8. monty_vfssv

    monty_vfssv Active Member

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    Yeah true.. not my car so left out the details.

    So are you trying to say the vf2 only has 280kw at the engine?? Wouldn't surprise me with how doughy they are stock. But with basic mods the ls3 is always up 20-30 odd kw on the vf1.

    If my stock vf2 was only 220kw at the rears, then I've picked up 80kw with just a CAI, exhaust and headers. Cant complain.
     
  9. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

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    Actually trying to sort fact from a fair whack of hyperbole is all. Yeah, I must be the devil :mad:
    Stock LS3 does not make peak power at 5400 RPM, rather 5900 RPM. Yet to see a stock VFII dyno showing peak close to that in fourth gear.
     
  10. monty_vfssv

    monty_vfssv Active Member

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    4th gear vf2.. Stock vs CAI
     

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  11. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

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    Thanks. Says the tacho source is the rollers, not the engine. The description says it is a VEII 6.2 which could be anything but would make sense if it were a blue Maloo.

    23244465_1531742730238059_6215157726358853614_n.jpg
    Above is a graph same dyno same place, in same shoot_8 shows straight off the showroom VFII SS making 10kW less.

    22308546_1501150343297298_843492214051556918_n.jpg
    Above is a graph same dyno same place, in same shoot_8 shows stock VFI makes 6 rwkw less than the VFII (2.7% less).

    See Shoot_8 is different to DynoDynamics J1349 mode, which is the correct mode to measure and apply correction to accepted standard.
    Shoot_8 is specifically for locking settings and comparing res back to back, not compensating to a standard for external comparison.

    No need to infer anything about the intent of the operator or accuracy of the process, for measuring power to a standard should have lots more information in a panel and state the correction method. Shoot_8 is not corrected J609 or the language of GM and Detroit, J1349.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  12. monty_vfssv

    monty_vfssv Active Member

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    Its definitely a blue vf2 ss ute.. not going to post photos of someone elses car for the sake of it but you can find it on there fb page.

    My guess would be that its a manual vf1?? Power outputs are going to vary car to car, day to day, dyno to dyno.. looking at all the different stock dyno graphs over the internet i would be confident in saying the 304kw sales wank is close enough to the actual engine kw rating (im going with 290+ engine kw). A bee's dick off maybe but nothing to get your knickers in a twist over. Holden has always been pushing the limits of what they advertise in terms of hp. Ford engines with over boost make a mockery of this when doing dyno shootouts.. not that it correlates directly with performance.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  13. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

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    Dynos which are properly setup to output to a certified standard don’t vary car to car, day to day. No.
    That dyno you presented is not compensating for any external factors under Shoot_8. Is only to lock settings in when comparing runs back to back.
    Thanks for looking, but I understand the engines, logging and graphs enough to realise you can’t take any of those uncorrected figures as meaningful to compare. The setting clearly say it is free run on the rollers, not even linked to the engine tacho.
    Not that interested at this point to discuss other car makers or engines either really.
    Looking for credible evidence in support Euro 5 LS3 making same output as Euro 4, and that is proving difficult to find.
     
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  14. Mike__

    Mike__ Active Member

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  15. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

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    Thanks @Mike__ that’s brilliant.
    Satisfies one of the main points in a recent thread where owners opinion and perception of the stock L77 vs VFII LS3 was that the Euro 5 was much more powerful:

    VFI stock measured 236.4 rwkw
    [​IMG]

    VFII stock measured 242.2 rwkw
    [​IMG]

    Same dyno, credible evidence, net difference 5.8 rwkw (2.4%).
     
  16. monty_vfssv

    monty_vfssv Active Member

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    Another 242kw stock vf2.. must be the magic number. 307 engine kw, not bad at all.
     
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  17. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

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    Sure, that makes sense and is in accord with GM’s published data.
    So reasonably if that is as the accepted figure, and by all credible accounts the VFI is 2.5% less, using the same scale the magic figure is 236kw for a stock VFI. 299 engine kw on 98, not bad at all.
    Also makes sense why VFI 0-100 is within 5% of VFII even though it has the shorter diff. What is most fascinating is the VEII has same drivetrain as VFI but 0.1s faster, just 0.1s behind the VFII.
    Being so close in fact (not opinion), makes me wonder how much more stock VFI makes over VFII on flex fuel. GM claims 5% more power... :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  18. monty_vfssv

    monty_vfssv Active Member

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    I'd be happy with that vf1 power figure! Shame most of them dyno less than 220kw (alot of them making barely over 200kw).. looks like it got left behind after a few mods which would back cudas claims of the ls3 being favorable with basic mods.
     
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  19. monstar

    monstar Naturally as-pirated

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    You are still generalising with your opinion without evidence regarding both engines and confusing absolute uncorrected dyno figures subject to temp, baro and other variable setup parameters with actual calibrated SAE or STD standards. Is not a shame or pity, is just not suitable for comparison. Nor is general comment in keeping with the technical nature of this thread.
    Off- Topic re: LS3 being inherently “better” for unopened mods
    Flex fuel is not a mod, +5% should be noted as highest stock peak, puts L77 ahead.
    The unopened RPM ceiling for daily driver tuning mods usually occurs before the engine’s redline. John is an expert, he has built many drag cars like this. GenIV with hypereutectic pistons redline is 6600 RPM, John’s tune revs 6750+. That’s 1000 RPM more than the 6.0 was allowed to spin, aka significantly higher HP potential.
    John clearly has the experience however I also have experience (and more faith) in revisions to the AFM setup courtesy of drag race testing by the car’s current NA world record holder, who regularly takes the AFM engine past redline. My RPM ceiling for example was 6400 unopened, limited by injectors on flex, not AFM.
    Tune results can’t be compared when one puts an RPM (HP) ceiling 1000 RPM less vs the other. So @monty_vfssv to assert that one engine “gets left behind after a few mods” is baseless.
    Also incorrect to derive from max effort drag tuning that LS3 is “better” for daily driver mods, when peak power is shown within 5% of each other, that is until the lesser valve lift of the stock 6.0 cam takes a toll around 270-285 rwkw.
    It is correct to state the cam fitted as standard to the LS3 allows greater peak power, no doubt.
    Different cam events, more than anything else to do with head / bore fit, allow the 6.2 to reach the higher power peak.
    From the evidence there is 2.5% difference stock, less than 5% with mods up to 270-285 rwkw where the AFM cam restricts power.
    [It is worth a note that bolting high ratio rockers to increase lift (time/area duration) brings flow of the AFM cam back to within 5%.]
    LS3 cam with FBO makes 304 rwkw on 98, +7.5% vs 6.0 on 98. Flex fuel does level the score :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  20. monty_vfssv

    monty_vfssv Active Member

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    If your going to note putting higher ratio rockers on one, you cant leave out the other.. apple's to apple's.

    Ls3 daily driving charectoristics aren't going to change leaving the stock cam as is. Having more up top is just a bonus..

    This is one example of how close they can be stock. Theres plenty of vf1 only just cracking the 200rwkw mark. Whilst majority of vf2 cracking the 230-245kw mark.

    Maybe you need more stock vf1 dyno graphs to analyze. Do you really think the vf1 would have 299fwkw and have holden market it as 260fwkw? No chance in hell. But it suits your agenda so we'll roll with it..
     
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