JC Political Thread - For All Things Political Part 2

[MasterOfReality]

I read it was mostly organised by the Socialist Alliance.

They were the same bunch of dirty morons that were always carrying on when I was at uni but nobody really took any notice of them. They were pretty quick to insult you if you refused to join in on their protests (used to try and recruit on the uni ground during lunch). In the end most of us just used to tell them to fark off as soon as they wandered in our general direction. In our engineering year I think there were 2-3 active members. Out of a combined group of hundreds that included all engineering disciplines.

They are just as irrelevant as the NUS and other assorted radical lefty groups.

 

[Reaper]

Please tell that to my wife doing an IT degree. Has been doing it over the last 10 years on and off due to having a family and vast streches of morning sickness. Now the % is charged on her HECS loan for all the previous subjects she has done. How are people doing degrees going to be able to afford them now. She will be in debt for the long term, and it affects all sorts of things, credit rating, house loans ect.

You should be allowed to get your first degree on the current system and then any further degrees as full fee. The payoff for the govenment is the higher taxes that a degree qualified person generally pays.

Lets be clear here - HECS/HELP/whatever it's called is the cheapest loan a person is ever likely to have and if you aren't willing to contribute to the cost in investing in your future then really why should the rest of society? I do agree on the part about subsequent degree's etc being fully paid for by the individual.

 

[Grennan]

I agree, that first degree is often a huge stepping stone. I think its important to give people assistance with that depending on the degree. I know its kinda harsh to say to someone were not helping you because your chosen career path is a bunch of hokey pokey. But I dont feel we should be giving people assistance if they want to study Renaissance Art for 3 years.

Further degrees after that should not be tax payers problems. The first degree is a huge stepping stone and more often than not gets you in the door, you can get a entry jobs and start contributing to society.

I think its fair to say most courses also have some sort of Work Placement integrated into it. That is a huge open door if youre prepared to go out on a limb and a lot of people would be suprised at how many places are willing to put up the cost of your education if you got a job with them.

Its a double edged sword, you help these people get their foot in the door and they can potentially repay that assistance ten fold in taxes and other contributions down the road.

Maybe I am a bit bitter because of how hard I had to work when I was studying and looking at all these people who essentially want it handed to them.

 

[Immortality]

LOL, your PM has been making the news in NZ a bit. Licking his lips looking at the Dutchess ass and now the wink on some radio interview. I'm sure he will be good mates with our goof of a PM here in NZ.

 

[Reaper]

With all this stuff on student fees and the like I think it's important to learn (or remember depending how old you are) this history of the subject. In the early 70's the Whitlam government made university education free for everybody. Back then the participation rate was very low, with most school leavers moving towards a trade or other non tertiary type training.

By the late 80's the demand for University education was booming however spots were very limited due to their available funding thus many potential students missed out. The Hawke labor government introduced the HECS scheme which required the students to pay a co-contribution for their education and it was further expanded (ie made more expensive for the student) by Keating in the last days of his prime minister-ship.

The net effect has been exactly the opposite of what the rabble are protesting against today. University education has become vastly more accessible to the public with an increase from less than 10% to near 50% of school leavers starting a degree. There are no barriers to entry here. If you qualify for a course, you will be given the loan at what is effectively interest free rates (indexed to cpi or similar) which will be the cheapest loan you will ever get, with repayments on a sliding scale depending on your income.

TBH I am entirely fine with it. What it means is people will have to seriously think about what they are doing at school and what the outcome will be. Just doing course after course, whilst being philosophically fine, we just cant afford. If people have an interest in an area and want to do a course just coz - fine, coz they can pay for it themselves

 

[Drawnnite]

scuse my misunderstanding but is this how the current HECS system works. (without going into too much detail and or researching)

Student A enrols in X course.
A cannot pay it in full. so through the HECS style does the course.
after being able to earn Y amount of dollars a year they start to pay back the loan at Z amount each year (which varies upon income)
this continues until all paid back.

is that right or is my understanding slightly amiss?

if it is this system, why does it need to be changed?
maybe after the first course it gets changed to a different system (maybe not all 100% upfront pay, but a 25% deposit, and every so often another 25% or whatever)
I know with all these extras ive done with trade schooling its generally pay per semester or year, rock up do it all, rinse and repeat until course is all done.
and to be honest, it is quite fair that way. that way if you don't complete it all and drop out (for specific reasons) then you've still learnt 25% and paid for that 25% worth.

 

[Grennan]

Essentially yes Drawn,

You enroll for course, cant pay for course. You enter a HECS debt and it was then paid for on as Reaper pointed out an extremely good loan.

Now, when I did Uni, you didnt start paying off said loan untill you were earning X amount (I am unsure if this has changed) and once you hit that amount you would start repaying the loan at a certain rate based on your current income.

Essentially what many people did (probably still do) is you can sit on a degree and claim X benefits from centerlink (when I was doing it, it was Aus Study I think). Aus Study covers you for the entire term of your course and you could also work. From there, you could sit on your degree, claim centerlink and not have to pay this debt back, once youve finished X degree, you want to do further study, no problems! Start the process again.

Anecdotally, I have friends who i left school with (ughh I finished school 10 years ago now). Who have finished 3 degrees and have never held a full time job. Funnily enough these are the people who consistently post Greens and Labor propaganda on my social media pages and attend protests.

 

[Reaper]

scuse my misunderstanding but is this how the current HECS system works. (without going into too much detail and or researching)

Student A enrols in X course.
A cannot pay it in full. so through the HECS style does the course.
after being able to earn Y amount of dollars a year they start to pay back the loan at Z amount each year (which varies upon income)
this continues until all paid back.

is that right or is my understanding slightly amiss?

Pretty much right on the money.

if it is this system, why does it need to be changed?

Previously the universities were regulated in what they could charge for a course. Now they will be free to pay what they like.

 

[50LTRv8]

TBH I am entirely fine with it. What it means is people will have to seriously think about what they are doing at school and what the outcome will be. Just doing course after course, whilst being philosophically fine, we just cant afford. If people have an interest in an area and want to do a course just coz - fine, coz they can pay for it themselves

So instead of increasing the intrest rate, make a HECS loan only for the first degree. The tacking on of the extra intrest is just making Uni out of reach. I have no problem paying the cost back, with a little bit extra as well as the extra tax I will be paying. But what is the point of paying a HECS debt for the next 20 years of your working life?

 

[Reaper]

So instead of increasing the intrest rate, make a HECS loan only for the first degree. The tacking on of the extra intrest is just making Uni out of reach. I have no problem paying the cost back, with a little bit extra as well as the extra tax I will be paying. But what is the point of paying a HECS debt for the next 20 years of your working life?

Either way somebody has to pay. It then becomes a philosophical question of weather all of Australia should pay or if it is ultimately the individual. At the very least All of Australia takes the financial risk with a default rate of around 20% where the student doesn't pay back (mostly because they move overseas and out of the reach of the ATO).