LS3 Lifter noise or Piston Slap?

[07GTS]

the pistons with the thicker top are the boost pistons, the n/a pistons still have ring lands closer to the top

 

[Kakodaemon]

Mate when I was talking to one of the Holden mechanics he said that most of the earlier aluminium motors were noisy. They tried pistons with longer skirts, to fix some of the louder motors, with limited success. With the modern computer technology and precise methods of production, why it would affect some engines more than others is
puzzling. I could understand it to some extent if the problems were only with the high performance motors, but ours is a standard 6 litre.

I thought that piston slap was either there from the start or not, i didn't think it could start out of nowhere?
I bought the car in 2019 (2nd owner) and only starting making a slight noise around the start of the year, it has now grown to the loud noise it is now.
My friend who used to work on the older engines with his mates listened and even he said he doesn't think its a worn piston.
He thinks i should get a second opinion so i might get Holden to diagnose it.
My fear is that the actual noise is a knocking sound, like something is physically contacting something else. At first start he sounds like something is trying to punch its way out of the engine. It started as a small tick for 20seconds around the start of the year and has gradually got worse.
My video was recorded with a cheap **** 170 dollar phone so maybe a better phone will show the noise sounds more like something is hitting something. It also goes away at the exact same temperature every time.

 

[Kakodaemon]

shot on a crapple iPhone 13
From dead cold start to warmed and completely gone is almost 5 minutes.
You can hear the knocking more clearly. It really is that loud in person! is this really piston slap or something worse?
The lower pully seems to look a bit wobbly but i don't think that is the cause of the sound as it remains wobbly after engine is warm

Noise disappears at this temp every time

 

[VCoz]

Unlike your case by lifting the idle to around 1200-1500rpm in gentle bursts at any time during the cold start or when the noise appears to have reduced (my engine rattled its head off - described by a factory trained Dealer Technician as not normal and "A hell of a racket"). Interesting your LS3 is also a 2016 model - can't recall but what Km's on the odometer when the noise was noticed. I will have more to say later after my own Court Case concludes. For interest/options sake do you know if this noise was raised/logged under warranty by the previous owner: if reported, was it before or after the last owner had injectors fail and been replaced under warranty? Time to consider your rights as the cost otherwise for a proper fix could be high - What is the service history like re compliant?
Re consider where you may go for this problem to be repaired and who you can trust - before being induced to spend the $150/hr for Holden Dealer diagnosis when outside warranty (suggest a reputable respected alternative LS3 expert that won't charge you an arm and a leg). Appears past testing involved removing the rocker covers to do the normal checks needed for diagnosis (assume including oil pressures checked) - recognise who will pay for the repair is the influential factor especially if it could be the manufacturer - FYI Manufacturer GM Holden's formal diagnostic approach in my case was simply - with the bonnet down, to sit in the drivers seat with the doors/windows closed, start the vehicle (and even if being 'tested' in a noisy location) if you can still hear it for 40-60 seconds over the background noise it was likely always going to be 'characterised' as normal piston slap (if some Australian Consumer Law (ACL) claim likely (more to this BS coming later)). Appears the level of noise that makes diagnosis Normal or Not Normal is proprietary information!!! Suggest before doing any major engine disassembly you consider your options including Consumer Guarantee under Australian Consumer Law. Don't expect help from 'Holden' its gone. (Just because the Manufacturers Warranty has ended doesn't mean your rights under ACL don't protect you even as the second owner (did you buy the vehicle through a Dealer?) Please raise what you discover here to help the likely many others unaware of their own not normal LS3 cold start noises.

 

[Kakodaemon]

Unlike your case by lifting the idle to around 1200-1500rpm in gentle bursts at any time during the cold start or when the noise appears to have reduced (my engine rattled its head off - described by a factory trained Dealer Technician as not normal and "A hell of a racket"). Interesting your LS3 is also a 2016 model - can't recall but what Km's on the odometer when the noise was noticed. I will have more to say later after my own Court Case concludes. For interest/options sake do you know if this noise was raised/logged under warranty by the previous owner: if reported, was it before or after the last owner had injectors fail and been replaced under warranty? Time to consider your rights as the cost otherwise for a proper fix could be high - What is the service history like re compliant?
Re consider where you may go for this problem to be repaired and who you can trust - before being induced to spend the $150/hr for Holden Dealer diagnosis when outside warranty (suggest a reputable respected alternative LS3 expert that won't charge you an arm and a leg). Appears past testing involved removing the rocker covers to do the normal checks needed for diagnosis (assume including oil pressures checked) - recognise who will pay for the repair is the influential factor especially if it could be the manufacturer - FYI Manufacturer GM Holden's formal diagnostic approach in my case was simply - with the bonnet down, to sit in the drivers seat with the doors/windows closed, start the vehicle (and even if being 'tested' in a noisy location) if you can still hear it for 40-60 seconds over the background noise it was likely always going to be 'characterised' as normal piston slap (if some Australian Consumer Law (ACL) claim likely (more to this BS coming later)). Appears the level of noise that makes diagnosis Normal or Not Normal is proprietary information!!! Suggest before doing any major engine disassembly you consider your options including Consumer Guarantee under Australian Consumer Law. Don't expect help from 'Holden' its gone. (Just because the Manufacturers Warranty has ended doesn't mean your rights under ACL don't protect you even as the second owner (did you buy the vehicle through a Dealer?) Please raise what you discover here to help the likely many others unaware of their own not normal LS3 cold start noises.

Hi Vcoz thanks for your reply.

So i have a video which I made today of inside the car and gently changing the revs which i will post below.
It goes away at certain revs but my phone is really cheap and crap and it is hard to hear.
My car is 71,1xx currently but don't recall the KM's when i first noticed the noise. I vaguely recall late last year there was a slight "ticking" noise for 10-20 seconds on first startup but was barely audible, was around start of the year where it slowly started getting noisier.
I bought the car November 2019 and it never made the noise then at all, unsure if previous owner made note with dealer of any noises.
I had all injectors replaced i think mid 2020 at Holden dealer under warranty.
I took my car to a performance shop who told me (of course) he knew everything about LS engines.
He serviced the car and removed rocker covers and tested lifters, valve springs, oil pressure etc. and found no fault.
He said he talked to his "engine builder" and they came to the conclusion that the teflon skirt on the piston had worn and wasn't going straight up and down causing it to knock on the bore which is what they believe makes the noise.
I did buy the car from a holden/Subaru dealer but they are about 2 hours drive from me.
I don't expect "help" from Holden but to get a diagnosis from the manufacturer as to what the noise is in writing may help me down the track with my consumer rights.
I was meant to hear from this performance shop today with a price and time frame for repair but they didn't call, not that i was going to go ahead but i wanted to hear what they would charge.
I'm extremely interested in your court case and its outcome and how it could help my situation, but, I unfortunately start a new job on the 27th and either need to know if this is a *cough* "normal" noise and can drive it to work without worrying OR need it fixed ASAP. This is just really bad timing for me.

 

[VCoz]

Re 'I did buy the car from a holden/Subaru dealer.' The Selling Dealer is the respondent under ACL, but if the noise was heard long after you accepted the vehicle that may make things more complicated - not being a private sale opens the door for ACL particularly if you can get important service reports/history info from the Dealer/s involved in its earlier Warranty life. Suggest you first try to get the important/incriminating history records (as the next Owner) from the Holden Servicing Dealer/s (records around the period while the vehicle was under warranty).
If GM Australia know you are considering ACL their 'doors' will likely be shut for access to important info as that's how they appear to play the ACL game. If you seek GM Australia's diagnosis they will likely send you to a Dealer but even if the dealer finds the issue GM Australia may override that diagnosis. (HCC claim they are there for owner's seeking good will warranty outside warranty - BS). A formal response other than 'normal' from GM Holden is as unlikely as using their 'people to test for manufacturing faults' in an out of warranty vehicle - the 'Holden' name has no commercial value anymore to GM.
The records from the past servicing should be obtainable from GM Holden (simple download if they want to give it to you) - first identify from wherever the servicing Holden dealer/s and ask them for your vehicle's history/servicing/tech reports (unsure if they will give you that Vehicle client file).
ACL is not a quick or easy path - you should get all the key evidence/argument before starting/applying to the Tribunal under ACL. If you, in the meantime, get the LS3 repaired then get the recognised expert repairer to log and photograph all out of specifications/measurements and to do a stat declaration of what they found and needed to fix (manufacturing faults). Keep the old parts. A LS3 at 70K arguably under ACL should not have major engine problems if not modified and serviced properly - before applying first read Victoria's ACL Vehicle Legislation re what you can hope re remedy - Vic ACL is not the same as Qld Lemon Laws.

 

[VCoz]

Hi Vcoz thanks for your reply.

So i have a video which I made today of inside the car and gently changing the revs which i will post below.
It goes away at certain revs but my phone is really cheap and crap and it is hard to hear.
My car is 71,1xx currently but don't recall the KM's when i first noticed the noise. I vaguely recall late last year there was a slight "ticking" noise for 10-20 seconds on first startup but was barely audible, was around start of the year where it slowly started getting noisier.
I bought the car November 2019 and it never made the noise then at all, unsure if previous owner made note with dealer of any noises.
I had all injectors replaced i think mid 2020 at Holden dealer under warranty.
I took my car to a performance shop who told me (of course) he knew everything about LS engines.
He serviced the car and removed rocker covers and tested lifters, valve springs, oil pressure etc. and found no fault.
He said he talked to his "engine builder" and they came to the conclusion that the teflon skirt on the piston had worn and wasn't going straight up and down causing it to knock on the bore which is what they believe makes the noise.
I did buy the car from a holden/Subaru dealer but they are about 2 hours drive from me.
I don't expect "help" from Holden but to get a diagnosis from the manufacturer as to what the noise is in writing may help me down the track with my consumer rights.
I was meant to hear from this performance shop today with a price and time frame for repair but they didn't call, not that i was going to go ahead but i wanted to hear what they would charge.
I'm extremely interested in your court case and its outcome and how it could help my situation, but, I unfortunately start a new job on the 27th and either need to know if this is a *cough* "normal" noise and can drive it to work without worrying OR need it fixed ASAP. This is just really bad timing for me.

I mentioned GM Australia's 'technique (BS)' that to listen to engine noises is done from within a closed car as some form of 'accepted standard' - that is not to my understanding GM's nor logical if you want to find the real cause of an internal engine noise. Assume, then if still heard the radio could be turned up if the diagnosis is intended to be 'normal'. Seriously, you couldn't write this stuff, as unless you see the video (dash cam on) you wouldn't believe it happens and say it is fiction. Understand now why some dealers ask for dashcams to be turned off in other workshops!!!
Suggest your sounds heard from inside the car during your test demonstrate the rattle does increase level and 'racket' when on no load and while cold the idle raised to 1200 -1500rpm? (like my experience) - my Dealer Holden Trained Technician's diagnosis was some piston slap but 90% of the noise lifters. RACQ report was valve train noise - recommendation do not drive it. Both diagnosis ignored and re-categorised as normal by GM Australia - hence being challenged under ACL. When the outcome is available and I can say more I will - understand your urgency and it may be some time though as the ACL process is not fast due to case backlogs (also my case is very complex and lots to consider).

 

[IBLOWN]

shot on a crapple iPhone 13
From dead cold start to warmed and completely gone is almost 5 minutes.
You can hear the knocking more clearly. It really is that loud in person! is this really piston slap or something worse?
The lower pully seems to look a bit wobbly but i don't think that is the cause of the sound as it remains wobbly after engine is warm

Noise disappears at this temp every timeView attachment 238760

The speed of the knock sounds like mine, yours might be a bit slower as the motor warms and the revs drop, but your knock sounds a lot tappier than mine. Mine is a more deep tone.

 

[bluehighway]

Have you checked its not a broken valve spring / bent pushrod. Some folk rev the guts out of V8s when theyre in neutral (not under load) cause it sounds cool fact is engines dont like it much and it can munt them.... My ls1 is over 20 years old and id never rev it past 1000rpm not under load ...I drive it slow until it gets up to temp...then the world is your oyster... 20 plus years on and still going strong.... no ticks...no rattles....purrs like the cat it is........lol

 

[Martbar]

Hi Vcoz thanks for your reply.

So i have a video which I made today of inside the car and gently changing the revs which i will post below.
It goes away at certain revs but my phone is really cheap and crap and it is hard to hear.
My car is 71,1xx currently but don't recall the KM's when i first noticed the noise. I vaguely recall late last year there was a slight "ticking" noise for 10-20 seconds on first startup but was barely audible, was around start of the year where it slowly started getting noisier.
I bought the car November 2019 and it never made the noise then at all, unsure if previous owner made note with dealer of any noises.
I had all injectors replaced i think mid 2020 at Holden dealer under warranty.
I took my car to a performance shop who told me (of course) he knew everything about LS engines.
He serviced the car and removed rocker covers and tested lifters, valve springs, oil pressure etc. and found no fault.
He said he talked to his "engine builder" and they came to the conclusion that the teflon skirt on the piston had worn and wasn't going straight up and down causing it to knock on the bore which is what they believe makes the noise.
I did buy the car from a holden/Subaru dealer but they are about 2 hours drive from me.
I don't expect "help" from Holden but to get a diagnosis from the manufacturer as to what the noise is in writing may help me down the track with my consumer rights.
I was meant to hear from this performance shop today with a price and time frame for repair but they didn't call, not that i was going to go ahead but i wanted to hear what they would charge.
I'm extremely interested in your court case and its outcome and how it could help my situation, but, I unfortunately start a new job on the 27th and either need to know if this is a *cough* "normal" noise and can drive it to work without worrying OR need it fixed ASAP. This is just really bad timing for me.

Hi mate as to previous, it sounds like ours especially when you let the revs. drop and you get that deeper knocking noise. To give you some idea how difficult it is to evaluate. The bloke from the Automobile Association didn't even pick it up. He reckoned that it was injectors opening and closing. When I took it to the former Holden dealers, l left it there overnight so that they could hear a cold startup. As soon as it fired he put it under load and said piston slap, very common in the full aluminium GM motors. Then he went on to say that ours wasn't to bad and you could hear some of the LS motors a couple of blocks away. The Dealership said that it was within specifications.
That they have given me warranty up to 200,000ks speaks volumes as to the longevity of these engines. Even with the pistons rattling up the bores, it still doesn't burn a drop of oil.