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Should the mechanic have run my car (idling) with no oil pressure?!

Discussion in 'VE Holden Commodore (2006 - 2013)' started by omadus, Apr 3, 2018.

  1. omadus

    omadus New Member

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    Now mechanics want me to pay for the ignition leads. However my car doesn’t even start now. I think that’s a very low go imo... at this stage I’m not paying for them & hand them back as I quite possibly may have a seized LS3 on my hands :-(
     
  2. omadus

    omadus New Member

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    Unfortunately my car was at the mechanic getting looked at and now the engine won’t start. I have an issue with the mechanic as there was no oil pressure before I brought it to the mechanic. I wrote down a list of issues such as low/no oil pressure engine lights on contact dealer on.

    Should the mechanic have turned on the engine with no oil pressure to diagnose?

    I would have though NO!!! they want me to pay for ignition leads, however I’m refusing to do so because my engine could possibly be seized.
     
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  3. immortality

    immortality Moderator Staff Member

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    They would need to test in case it's a faulty oil pressure switch but they should have only idled it long enough to test check the pressure and then shut it down.
     
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  4. omadus

    omadus New Member

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    Ah unfortunately I think they had it running for some time he said he heard noises after running the engine for a while, then the engine shut off.

    So he shouldn’t of been continuously running the engine since I wrote in the list that there was no/low oil pressure? I’m hoping he read what I wrote down, common sense is to do that before commencing work. I left my car there as they were fully booked, I explained I’m not driving it as there is no oil pressure. I wrote a list and should of been with the car as I handed over the list & my keys over the counter. Communication is key & I think they may of failed in that. At least call and ask what’s up before they do work but they didn’t and now we are (customer/mechanic) in this murky situation as usual.

    I’ve taken the car to another place they will give me answers on the damage and what to do, I’ll be sure to add an update. Fingers crossed.

    Thanks for reply
     
  5. immortality

    immortality Moderator Staff Member

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    Well that sounds like an admission of fault.

    You have the car back, get that 2nd opinion and then go back to the original mechanic to see how he will remedy the situation.
     
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  6. omadus

    omadus New Member

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    So ive got my answer and I’ve now got to install a new motor, engine is seized. There may of been an underlying problem, however oil pump would have been the first thing to look at with the engine off. The car should not have been idling for too long with no oil pressure. I’ve got an unusual situation on my hands here. I’m not a happy chap.

    Thanks for reply
     
  7. ChRiDDa

    ChRiDDa Active Member

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    Sounds like the engine was well and truely knackered before it went into the shop - they may have just finished it off

    Being an LS3, wouldnt it be covered under warranty?
     
  8. redvxr8clubby

    redvxr8clubby Active Member

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    The OP's ride list as 2009 VE R8 - I think 6.2 was from about April 2008 for HSV
     
  9. omadus

    omadus New Member

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    The engine has done 168k kms and cam exhaust mods at around 130k kms. Maybe just old and tired. Idling the engine with no oil presssure would surely do serious damage right??? I’d think so. Doesn’t matter anymore though It’s too hard to get justice out of it. If I was an asshole and had a barrister I’d win in this situation surely.

    Engine is getting reconditioned with HD clutch maybe replacing camshaft with another as it could of contributed to issues re profile etc... at least there is progress however very expensive progress.
     
  10. EYY

    EYY Well-Known Member

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    Well if you noticed it had a lack of oil pressure at any stage, it's likely the damage had already been done. Doesn't take much to kill them.

    A lack of oil pressure will absolutely destroy an engine - much worse than a complete loss. If you'd lost oil pressure, it probably wouldve been an engine out job anyway at the end of the day.
     
  11. greenacc

    greenacc Searching for the billion

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    How did you get the car to the first mechanic shop?
     
  12. VEdriver59

    VEdriver59 Member

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    If you can prove you gave them written instructions and they failed to abide by those instructions then you have a cause of action for negligence

    If you can prove you told them to look at the oil pump FIRST and they did not do this you have a cause of action for negligence

    If they run the engine knowing it had little or no oil in it then you have a cause of action for negligence.

    The car fixer has a clear duty of care to exercise their training, expertise and due diligence as a mechanic. The mechanic failed in their duty of care because they did not exercise due care having regard to all the circumstances of the case.

    Its highly likely the mechanic is covered by insurance for these skins of events.

    IMO you have good case for a replacement engine and damages for inconvenience and personal stress caused by not having access your motor vehicle.

    If you want to launch an action against the mechanic go to your states Magistrates or Supreme court court website to find and complete the all the forms necessary to commence an action for negligence.

    There is no need to be too concerned about seeking legal remedy, there is no reason why you should not be able run this case in court yourself. A court of summary jurisdiction, in most Australian states can hear cases of up to $10,000 as a small claim. A small claims court is much less informal than higher courts

    This is NOT legal advice. This information is provided for informational purposes only. I am NOT a lawyer. If you need legal advice see a lawyer.

    cheers
     
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  13. immortality

    immortality Moderator Staff Member

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    Engine out yes but the level of damage would differ greatly from minor to a completely ceased engine. He now has a ceased engine, had it been idled for a short period for testing oil pressure only chances are a basic engine re-fresh and crank linish/polish would have been enough.

    Considering they had been told it was suspected of having no oil pressure, running the engine for an extended period of time is pure negligence.
     
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  14. Sabbath'

    Sabbath' Shipwrecked

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    We'e missing so many details as the OP makes his posts hard to comprehend.

    As to the first instance of low oil pressure and if that' Why it was at a mechanics to begin with. How it was taken to the mechanics. If low oil pressure has been something he has been battling for a while until he notice it drop or warnings come on the dash.

    No way to blame this entirely on the mechanicwith such a one sided storyfrom the OP. Thread needs more info or closing.
     
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  15. EYY

    EYY Well-Known Member

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    If it’s just nipped up slowly on idle probably the best case scenario.If a bearing has grabbed in that scenario the crank probably isn’t bent - and rectifying an oil pressure problem doesn’t necessarily mean the engine will live a long life either.

    Actually, I’d expect that if an engine lost oil pressure for even a few seconds at high rpm and load there would be considerable damage - and I wouldn’t be taking the chance if I were sceptical about the bearings. Chances are it was toast anyway.

    As sabbath said, lots of holes in the info given. It’s not a new or low km car and the engine’s been opened up before - there are just too many variables.

    Sounds like the op dropped a ticking time bomb off at the mechanics workshop and expected them to diffuse it. We’ll probably never know the full story though.
     
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  16. immortality

    immortality Moderator Staff Member

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    IF they were able to idle the engine for a considerable time then it wasn't hurt to bad and a basic rebuild would most likely have fixed the problem i.e new bearings and polish crank or maybe grind crank to ensure ideal clearances.

    Considering the engine is ceased the damage will be much greater. Either way, it was stupid to idle the engine any longer than required to diagnose the low oil pressure problem and has left the mechanic open to exactly this scenario.

    Engines can live with little to no oil pressure for a fair while whilst at idle. I drove a old straight 6 where the oil light would come on when the engine idled once the oil was warm, drove it like that for ages and the engine never ceased even though I was expecting it too. I had a 308 that lost oil pressure after an oil change, was started and stopped multiple times fitting and refitting oil pumps/testing etc. Engine was torn down and it showed some bearing wear but nothing excessive considering the mileage, no damage to crank etc. A new set of bearings and gaskets and it fired up fine with good oil pressure.

    Go to youtube and watch the many videos of people dropping the oil pan and then revving the crap out of the engine and see how long it takes for them to cease up.

    Regardless, (based on the info supplied) when the car came in the engine was running, when it left it was ceased and you don't need to be Einstein to figure out things have gotten worse since the mechanic worked on it and opens them up to liable.

    No-where have I said the mechanic is 100% to blame for the engine damage but IMHO the are partly liable as the problem got worse whist the vehicle was in their care.

    Isn't it sad that **** like this happens because of the lack of professionalism I see everywhere these days. To many cowboys giving good tradesman a bad name because of **** like this. **** like this is why I do all my own work on my cars, got stung once when I was young and didn't know better but learnt quick and never again. I see **** like this on a daily basis at work where the customer is short changed because one of our guys fucked up and it's covered up.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
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  17. EYY

    EYY Well-Known Member

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    If it’s seized whilst idling, a basic rebuild will likely suffice. Often a bearing will grab and won’t spin. Check that the crank hasn’t twisted, regrind crank and resize rods and you’re good to go again along with other bearings, rings etc. If you’re unlucky, could be mains or cam bearings but very unlikely.

    As for old Holden’s and low oil pressure, it’s normal for the oil pressure light to blink when hot at idle. The factory switch is at 6psi, and apparently the manual even says this is okay.

    The lack of oil pressure becomes a problem when load is concerned. Try dropping the oil on an ls or any well built engine with small clearances and go for a drive up a hill. Free revving doesn’t put anywhere near the load on parts subject to friction.

    When I say lack of oil pressure, I mean a severe lack - I.e. 15-20psi at 3000rpm while overtaking or towing etc. Modern engines just can’t handle the same abuse the older engines could either.

    I’m just discussing an alternative point of view. I don’t disagree that the mechanic may be at fault, but I do think that the op should have considered a seizure a possibility. Although the supposed admission of fault puts a spin on things.

    And yeah I was burnt 2 years ago or so. The gas place had my car for 6 hours while I sat and waited (was supposed to be 2). Was quoted $170 and then charged $518 and told that they couldn’t find the problem. Worker told me that he couldn’t finish tuning it because the laptop went flat whilst road tuning, so they left a base map on it.

    Ran worse than when I dropped it off and they made a mess of the wiring. I went home and found the problem myself and got it all sorted. Went back to them and demanded money back - got $300 back. That’s the short version of why I’m not taking my car anywhere except for tint and rwc’s.
     
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  18. omadus

    omadus New Member

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    Gday guys just to clarify, I noticed the engine light turn on then oil light then checked my tachometers oil pressure was zero & fluctuate to 10psi. I was at my driveway & I literally drove 100 meters to the service station mechanic and parked it there. I wrote a list down for the mechanic noting oil pressure issue as it wait there to get worked on in the next few days.

    So I got word off the mechanic on the phone as I asked “did you read my list stating low/no oil pressure among other issues before commencing work” I wasn’t given much in terms of “yes” just that he received the list. I asked did you know there was no oil pressure? All he said was “I turned it on to diagnose the issue and found a misfire” I said, “do you think you should have had the engine idling with no oil pressure?” All I got was, “I’m not taking responsibility” etc in defence mode. I asked how long was it idling for? He said 6 minutes. That’s where the problem lies I would have thought... 6 minutes of idling & no oil pressure checking for a misfire instead of draining the oil first and then checking the oil pump. If all is good it’s the pump, if not then take it somewhere that is competent on working with this engine since he doesn’t want to fix my seized engine.

    I’m still trying to think about should I just go ahead and make a claim hoping that he pays for repair of seized engine. It’s costing me $4900 and I’m at a point where I think there was negligence on their part. Right now car is somewhere else getting camshaft replacement, HD clutch, better otr & tune so I’ll be glad when I get it back soon.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
  19. losh1971

    losh1971 Well-Known Member

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    I reckon if you were to press for a claim you wouldn't be entitled to a new engine. I reckon you might have a claim for a $500 SH engine and he fits it. If you was asking him to check the oil pump that in itself is a $500 job.
     
  20. omadus

    omadus New Member

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    Well I don’t know the full story either accept my car was runnning well days before the oil issue occurred. It being a ticking time bomb is a bit of an assumption there. I look after the car as best as I can service done every 5000k etc.

    An oil pump can fail, however I think it can be fixed and the engine won’t seize meaning it’s not a ticking time bomb. The oil pressure didn’t go to zero because of high rpm instead it was at a random time driving home. I check my gauges every time I drive & the stick was sitting at the middle of the taco reading (not sure what psi that is as I don’t have car here atm) before heading home. Engine light went on & oil light went on I checked my gauge and it hit zero literally near my driveway then it goes to 10psi. I was 100 meters from the mechanic so I took it there staight away.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018

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